MMA and RBSD

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Re: MMA and RBSD

Post  Richard Grannon on Thu Aug 24, 2006 11:29 am

i ginored this thread thinking it had been done to death

silly me!

im made up with the mods for leaving the political hot stuff in! gggggrrrrr!

good work fellas pirat

what a cool question, i would love to train a MMA fighter in RBSD

provided they have an open mind and humble enough to relearn i think they would make excellent RBSD ers (sic?)
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Re: MMA and RBSD

Post  Guest on Thu Aug 24, 2006 3:32 pm

To me a good class MMA fighter is like a good class sports swimmer. Fantastic at what they do, often better than their counterpart in the Lifesaver society at that bit.

But they need to get instruction in and an appreciation of how to play things when you're on a ship in the middle of nowhere and the ship has just hit an iceberg.

A world record time in the 500meter Butterfly isn't going to help then, but knowing where the lifebeelts are, ahnd knowing how to lower the lifeboats, will.

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Re: MMA and RBSD

Post  Line of Eld on Thu Aug 24, 2006 5:34 pm

Brian-

Agreed. Combat sports as delivery systems need tweaking for application, although I think it is usually less than is made out. Mostly it has to do with moving from a symmetrical picture of combat to an asymmetrical one. Happily I think a necessary prerequisite for doing this is being able to handle symmetrical combat, so at least that base is covered.

Your mention of a swimming analogy reminded me of another one I heard earlier this year. It depends upon comparing one highdiving and fighting.

Highdiving is traumatic for most people, even if they are competent swimmers. No one has much of a problem with nice controlled diving from an easy place by the side of the pool or off a short board. Some people only cannonball or jump feet first. If they are faced with a dive off a highboard then they are going to have an emotional response full of doubts and fears all the way through their climb up to the point they jump.

At the point they finally have to jump, though, it is a matter of making the dive and swimming. The rationalising and wondering is put aside, and it is a matter of either doing or not.

The actual event of fighting is like this, in the sense that while we may have an emotional response to the run-up, and negotiate an interiew process ... ultimately it may still be the case that we will have to fight despite our best efforts. At that point, the rest of it is put on the backburner and it will come down to how good our delivery systems are, and how good our conditioning is.

If these are in order, then you have the final line of defence. If these are not, then it doesn't matter how good your auxilliary skills and understanding of what goes before and after is, if your bluff is called or hand is forced, then you risk coming up short during the main event itself.

What I'm saying in a roundabout way is that if someone has the hard skills, whether from MMA or elsewhere, then they are (in my opinion) ahead of the game, and in a better position in terms of readiness than someone who has only patchy hard skills but a good understanding of soft skills.

My opinion only, I think this could be another good angle for debate. I know this is somewhat counterintuitive, in the sense that generally people emphasise avoidance as a first tactic in self defence. I don't disagree with that at all, but I would point out that if we prepare for the worst case scenario first, then we should begin from a premise whereby we accept that avoidance or de-escalation cannot be depended upon, ergo the need for fighting ability come crunch-time.
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Re: MMA and RBSD

Post  Guy Fawkes on Fri Aug 25, 2006 3:11 am

Nick Hughes wrote:It's a forum...I always thought GT's was just a tad too tame (I know there's some crap others populated by wankers who hurl insults at each other) and have always thought we should be able to get into it a bit more with each other as long as it didn't turn personal.

I think Mr. Hughs has a point here. As a result of the tamer atmosphere at the old GT forum, it had the effect of contipating all nastiness in us.

While I am at it I might as well start with you, Nick.

I don't believe you are actually an Aussie.

I could watch a few Crocadile Dundee movies and fake an accent. And any sensible members of certain national groups have no trouble getting phoney passports.

And you are a truly evil man who as a result of your French Foreign Legion tales had me out looking for a FAMAS rifle as used by the FFL.

mattyboy wrote:Guy Falkes, Do you beleive it was Lito or Do you Know it was Lito , two different things really..

It was Lito who gave Dave a forum and made him mod of it in recognition of the fact that he is a great contributor and has a good deal of knowledge. I am not going to take that away from him.

(a lot to catch up with; more to come)


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Re: MMA and RBSD

Post  Guy Fawkes on Fri Aug 25, 2006 3:12 am

Nick Engelen wrote:Hi Guy,

Maybe a personal question... I've read about the gunpowderplot. Is Guy Fawkes your real name or were you inspired by the story?

My parents had an interesting sense of humor.

I am proof of that.

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Re: MMA and RBSD

Post  Guy Fawkes on Fri Aug 25, 2006 3:24 am

Socrates wrote:
If you read Dave's original post carefully, what he actually said was

He came to me for tuition in how to 'fill in some gaps' he had in his methods .. not many gaps but some.. (edited down)... his grappling THEN was non-existant ( I am talking many years ago now).. when he saw a move or principle I showed him that he liked, he would want to know everything about it.. its origins etc.. so if I said.. oh thats from wrestling/judo/ju-jutsu. whatever, he wanted to know all about it..

Had he said that alone, it *might* have been one thing, though I doubt it. But the kicker was that he said:

Dave Turton wrote:I taught Geoff for a lot of years, and most of the stuff he ended up doing as his system of street combat was based around what I taught him..

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Re: MMA and RBSD

Post  Chris on Fri Aug 25, 2006 3:41 am

So anyway... two guys walk into a bar.... one is an MMA guy the other is an RBSD guy.

They have a fight about who should be allowed to continue to flog the most dead horses. bounce
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Re: MMA and RBSD

Post  BN on Fri Aug 25, 2006 3:56 am

Rickson by armbar.
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Re: MMA and RBSD

Post  Socrates on Fri Aug 25, 2006 4:02 am

If I was feeling mischievous, IŽd ask who invented RBSD! Laughing
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Re: MMA and RBSD

Post  edbaker on Fri Aug 25, 2006 4:04 am

Who taught Rickson?
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Re: MMA and RBSD

Post  Guest on Fri Aug 25, 2006 4:22 am

'Reality Based Self Defence' - what a ridiculous term that is! What other kind of self-defence could there be - fantasy based perhaps?

Admittedly some seem to be!

Just being pedantic!

Mick

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Re: MMA and RBSD

Post  Richard Grannon on Fri Aug 25, 2006 4:26 am

no man thats a cool idea!

mick that i s genius, ur a marketing guru

im telling you a course on defending against orkish hordes of Uruk Hai with just a doubleheaded battle axe, an anoyingly sincere hobbit and a queer elf would sell like hot cakes

fantasy based self defense

instead of grades we could have mage levels... sweet!

whos with me?

guys?... uh, hello?
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Re: MMA and RBSD

Post  Chris on Fri Aug 25, 2006 4:36 am

you've rolled one too many twelve sided dice in your time haven't you Richie??? Laughing
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Re: MMA and RBSD

Post  John B on Fri Aug 25, 2006 5:47 am

you've rolled one too many twelve sided dice in your time haven't you Richie???

Chris

You'd better level up quick!! A few extra hit points & a 12 sided dice won't save you from my FLAMING SWORD OF DOOM!!!!!
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Re: MMA and RBSD

Post  John B on Fri Aug 25, 2006 5:49 am

P.s.

I do have a girlfriend, honest........ Very Happy
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Re: MMA and RBSD

Post  Jamie Wadman on Fri Aug 25, 2006 5:52 am

whats self defence?
whats reality?
I'm confused!!!!!
What are we talking about again?????
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Re: MMA and RBSD

Post  dik on Fri Aug 25, 2006 6:35 am

And a pump and a puncture repair kit too I'd hazard. Very Happy

Dik

John B wrote:P.s.

I do have a girlfriend, honest........ Very Happy
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Re: MMA and RBSD

Post  John B on Fri Aug 25, 2006 9:52 am

And a pump and a puncture repair kit too I'd hazard.

Dik

My girlfriend never says no...unless she's feeling a little deflated ha ha!

& what is wrong with fantasy? I've always preferred girls who like goblin'...(Ok, Ok I apologise for that last one, I'll behave from now on!) Wink

Back to the thread..

I think the leap between MMA and RBSD is not as large as some would have you believe. It is more of an apreciation of other factors such as environment, multiple enemys etc. The only real physical stuff is the fence and posturing etc.
The actual weapons are all ready in place.

I think a MMA stylist who goes on to learn elements of RBSD would be more dangerous than a 'pure' RBSD practitioner, but that is just my opinion.
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Re: MMA and RBSD

Post  Dave Turton on Fri Aug 25, 2006 12:10 pm

Hi John B... What exactly do you mean by more 'dangerous' mate..
If you mean maybe more prepared to get physical I more or less agree with you.
Thats because the MMA guys have HAD to get physical in their training. But if you mean more 'dangerous' because of the technqiues and methods available to them, I'm not so sure.
MMA guys arernt taught eye jabs, bites, groin tearing, carotid strikes etc etc in their training, but will probably be better prepared to get more physical sooner than self-defence people who may in fact be trying HARDER to avoid the physical.

Some pressure testing methods of the guys involved in self-defence and speaking mainly from my own organisation, can get quite severe.

Also from the other side of the coin so to speak, many SD/SP people have tranfered to MMA very successfully, again I can only use the ones I know from the SDF but there hav ebeen a dozen or more guys who started (and still train in) SD who have done very well in MMA.
Andy Crittenden has several good fighters form the SDF classes.

Phil Akins from the Welsh SDF has a couple of international champs
Paul Powers SDF Sheffield has guys like Scott Sykes and Alex McKenzie who have done well, and I have had Dave Brown who held a British Title 2 years ago.

so the opposite is possible

but really I suppose it is always down to HOW YOU ACTUALLY TRAIN

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Re: MMA and RBSD

Post  NickR on Fri Aug 25, 2006 2:04 pm

Ive not read the thread, as im a slow reader (fick northner) and posts are made faster than I can read them....

I would work on the following:

Weapons training.
Training in a real room/street eg with obstacles, somewhere with scatter chairs, somewhere confined)
Training on pavement (see how they face hitting a hard floor rather than a ring floor).
Training for group attacks.
Training for suprise attacks.
Dirty tricks training - eye gouges, skin scraping, ear biting.
The fence.
The mental side of self protection, warning signs, keeping away from dangerous areas etc.

And last but not least, learning to defend others who are in peril.

Probably, a summary of whats already been said.

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Re: MMA and RBSD

Post  BN on Fri Aug 25, 2006 2:27 pm

edbaker,

You wrote, "Who taught Rickson?"

You did!!! Don't you remember?
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Re: MMA and RBSD

Post  John B on Sat Aug 26, 2006 3:44 am

HI Dave

May be those are the wrong choice of words. My current thinking is thate MMA would give you;
Superior (specific) strength, gained only by constant grappling with non compliant opponents.

Superior cardiovascular fitness

familiarity & confidence in the (physical) ranges of combat, standing, clich & ground. In addition to this is the fluidity of movement between ranges.
I think fluidity can only be gained from continuous training such as sparring, bagwork etc. and not stop-start 'one punch kill' type scenario training.

Hopefully the verbal / fence/ distraction / incapacitation will be enough, but if it fails for whatever reason, MMA gives excellent backup attributes.

It is true that RBSD practitioners are now doing well in compettitions, but have they trained purely in RBSD, or have they supplemented training with grappling & boxing?

The differences are becoming very blurred, hence my original point..

I think the leap between MMA and RBSD is not as large as some would have you believe

I guess it boils down to HOW you train is more impotant than WHAT you train?

MMA guys arernt taught eye jabs, bites, groin tearing, carotid strikes etc etc in their training, but will probably be better prepared to get more physical sooner than self-defence people who may in fact be trying HARDER to avoid the physical

A MMA guy who trained additional RBSD would also learn these methods, so it would not be an advantage to the 'pure' RBSd'er

Your 2nd point is interesting though. Do you think a MMA man might be more 'keen' to go physical too soon in a confrontation, possibiliy without exhausting more non-violent options?
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Re: MMA and RBSD

Post  Narcoleptic on Sat Aug 26, 2006 4:56 am

Line of Eld wrote:
What I'm saying in a roundabout way is that if someone has the hard skills, whether from MMA or elsewhere, then they are (in my opinion) ahead of the game, and in a better position in terms of readiness than someone who has only patchy hard skills but a good understanding of soft skills.

Good post Eld!

I think this depends on how having the hard skills effects your mindset. If you feel tough and rearing to go you may well take unecessary risks and get into lots more troube than someone who dont know the first thing about fighting, but have learned to survive by avoiding at all costs. Someone serious about SP that feel that "soft skills" are pretty much all they have - due to age or disability maybe - would be very motivated to perfect thoose soft skills - and to put them into practice.

If i compare myself during the time when a serious knee injury seriously limited my ability to either run or fight with some period when i train hard and are fit i definitely FEEL better/more secure in the latter case. On the other hand im giving considerable less thought to where and when i go etc. I PREFER beeing prepared to fight cause i feel better, but dont know for sure if im really any safer for it.

Cheers,

/Narco
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Re: MMA and RBSD

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