MMA and RBSD

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Re: MMA and RBSD

Post  Nick Hughes on Wed Aug 23, 2006 5:40 pm

It's been said before...

If two people agree on everything then one of them isn't necessary.

It's a forum...I always thought GT's was just a tad too tame (I know there's some crap others populated by wankers who hurl insults at each other) and have always thought we should be able to get into it a bit more with each other as long as it didn't turn personal.

I didn't see any personal attacks in either of their posts so I have no problem with it. I'd have been HUGELY disapointed if Chris or Brian had pulled the plug.

Seconds out...

Nick
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Re: MMA and RBSD

Post  Joshu's Dog on Wed Aug 23, 2006 6:02 pm

Boy, I leave off on a thread because I think it's not interesting.... affraid

Settle the thing with honor.
Power slaps at 30 paces.

Finis.

JK
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Re: MMA and RBSD

Post  Guy Fawkes on Wed Aug 23, 2006 6:38 pm

mattyboy wrote:Sorry to butt in, but I for one dont appreciate the nature or spirit of your posts on this thread at all Lito..Im sure Geoff can speak for himself..and since DT was a revered Moderator on Geoffs website I would guess at Geoffs invitation i dont see any conflict in what Dave is saying and what Geoff has said in the past.

I believe Lito was the one who made Dave Turton a mod and gave him his own forum.

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Re: MMA and RBSD

Post  Guest on Wed Aug 23, 2006 7:30 pm

Hi Guy. Nice to have you here mate.

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Re: MMA and RBSD

Post  Guy Fawkes on Wed Aug 23, 2006 11:31 pm

Hi, Bri.

In this case we have someone refuting what someone else said rather than insulting the person. If all cyberspace was like that it would be very boring.

For anyone readng, Lito did not insult anyone but rather posted a correction of facts.

I've read Geoff's books and there is no mention of learning everything he knew or a great deal of it from Dave Turton or a shadowy figure who might be Dave Turton. The esence of writings was that he got a black belt in karate and found precious little of what he learned was applicable. So he focused on pre-emptive with boxing blows and tactical ploys that he learned from various doormen. He followed up from there with boxers and boxing coaches and such, since they had the best handwork. From there he branched out to study grappling as in Judo (which he is a black belt) as well as certifications in wrestling and Sambo, neither of which came from Mr. Turton.

Geoff indeed did work with Dave Turton, but to a limited extent. So it would seem it is quite a stretch for Dave to say:

Dave Turton wrote:I taught Geoff for a lot of years, and most of the stuff he ended up doing as his system of street combat was based around what I taught him.. God that sounds so egotisitial.. not let me re-phrase it..

Geoff was a combat sponge middle name "Oliver Twist" (compliment by the way)..He came to me for tuition in how to 'fill in some gaps' he had in his methods .. not many gaps but some.. his karate had waned with the introduction of boxing punches, re-adapted for the street.. his grappling THEN was non-existant ( I am talking many years ago now)..

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Re: MMA and RBSD

Post  Alan Bec on Wed Aug 23, 2006 11:40 pm

I always thought GT's was just a tad too tame (I know there's some crap others populated by wankers who hurl insults at each other) and have always thought we should be able to get into it a bit more with each other as long as it didn't turn personal.


I quite agree although I have to say it did work and kept a lot of trolls away.


For what it's worth they are both great guys that we are lucky to have here.


Alan

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Re: MMA and RBSD

Post  Guest on Wed Aug 23, 2006 11:51 pm

Alan is correct!

Guy, you're just taking sides, but not saying anything new. I hope this isn't a gun powder plot to blow the issue out of all proportion?

Cool (I awarded myself a "cool" smiley for being so clever).

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Re: MMA and RBSD

Post  Dave Turton on Thu Aug 24, 2006 12:24 am

Just a little extra... and I will shut up (for now).. I agree with Brian that I dont want this thread causing problems on a NEW Forum... But I have twice written quite longish posts in reply, and twice deleted them..
If Lito wants me to 'defend' myself further on here I am more than ready..

I do have video footage of Geoff stating some of the points I raised.. so maybe Lito can call Geoff a 'liar'.. but what would that serve..
I have never met Lito we have only spoke on the phone or via emails.

I cant remember exactly WHO asked me to go on Geoff's forum as a 'mod' (which I never really was) with my own Q&A slot.. but I do know I spoke to Geoff on the phone about it several times, and he was enthusiastic about it.??? .. I think I kind of drifted (if thats the right word) into it as forum member.. I was asked to be a mod and also to have my own Q&A sot at more or less the same time, I think the forum had just had a mod or two leave for personal reasons or something, and also Geoff's own regular Q&A slot was getting less frequent.. but I am not 100% sure on that so dont take me to task on THAT one.

Anyway it doesnt really matter who asked me as such, but knowing Geoff, I know if he thought I SHOULDNT Have been on there he would have said so..

I also know I never saw Lito at any of the sessions down in Coventry when I was invited to teach...

But although I am more than happy to continue this if necessary .. is it?

Just felt a bit sorry for a new forum that Lito didnt PHONE me.. (we had only spoke on the phone a few days prior to this kicking off)...

I feel though a bit like Israel and Lebanon.. any kind of peace is better than any kind of war, as innocents get caught up in it.

I have communicated with Chris on the subject, and am making this my last post on this thread unless something prompts me to do otherwise.

Again my apologies for what should have (started maybe) as a private converstation/disagreement between myself and Lito to have dragged you guys in on it

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Re: MMA and RBSD

Post  Chris on Thu Aug 24, 2006 2:46 am

Well I suppose we aren't in Kansas anymore.

here's the breakdown.

Lito - Dave you're wrong.

Dave - Lito, you're wrong.

Until either person offers up proof that's the sum total of the topics available for debate on the issue. Video posted to all of the members, articles from magazines, phone calls taped and transcribed????

Not gonna happen is it?

Did I miss anything? Rolling Eyes
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Re: MMA and RBSD

Post  Nick Engelen on Thu Aug 24, 2006 2:51 am

Hi Guy,

Maybe a personal question... I've read about the gunpowderplot. Is Guy Fawkes your real name or were you inspired by the story?

Kind Regards,

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Re: MMA and RBSD

Post  Nick Engelen on Thu Aug 24, 2006 2:56 am

Hi Guy,

Maybe a personal question... I've read about the gunpowderplot. Is Guy Fawkes your real name or were you inspired by the story?

Kind Regards,

Nick Engelen

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Re: MMA and RBSD

Post  Chris on Thu Aug 24, 2006 3:39 am

Guy,

Geoff doesn't mention who his wrestling coach was... doesn't mention who his boxing coach was and hardly actually mentioned Peter C or Neil Adams in Watch my Back.

Doesn't mean they don't exist though.
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Re: MMA and RBSD

Post  Katsumoto on Thu Aug 24, 2006 3:53 am

Lets face it, the ONLY person who can settle this is a Mr Geoff Thompson.
And he ain't about to.

So lets drop it and have one great big group hug, then get on with life...
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Re: MMA and RBSD

Post  mattyboy on Thu Aug 24, 2006 4:06 am

Guy Falkes, Do you beleive it was Lito or Do you Know it was Lito , two different things really...

Also lets remember that this isnt Geoffs Forum...that one was closed down overnight without any warning!!!!!!!

Love and Hugs to everyone, Im not taking sides with anyone, just expressing my viewpoint, certain people in the past whom I esteemed to be full of Integrity, were obviously not, and I dont see why they should bring their arguments to this new Forum through third Parties.


Im now out of this thread...and moving on....

Matty
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Re: MMA and RBSD

Post  BN on Thu Aug 24, 2006 4:49 am

Hi,

For what it's worth I agree with Guy Fawkes.I don't know either Geoff or Dave T personally.But I have read most of Geoff's books and most of his interviews and I always had the impression that he learned most of his street stuff through John Anderson, and practical experience.

When Geoff mentions his teachers he usually cites John Anderson,Neil Adams and Wayne Larkin most frequently.Of course he had other teachers,Dave T certainly among them,but the only person he really seems to give mentor status to is John Anderson.

I think if Dave were responsible for teaching Geoff most of what he knows for the street it would have been more apparent by now.Geoff would have said it himself.I for one was very surprised when I read the post that sparked all the sound and fury in which Dave made his initial claim.

Not calling Dave T a liar.I repeat,I do not know either Geoff or Dave.But, I do have to side with Lito on this one. He has taken a bit of a bashing simply for stating things as he sees them.

Who made who a mod on whatever forum is really not relevant to this discussion at all.
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Re: MMA and RBSD

Post  Chris on Thu Aug 24, 2006 5:34 am

I thought Peter C was Geoff's "mentor" that's what's said in the latest newsletter.

John Anderson was his "mentor" as well.

Neil Adams was a "mentor" with Wayne L while studying judo.

That's as it should be surely... we take the best of what we can from those we come into contact with.

My point is this... dependant on what was said to either person and different times and places BOTH could be telling the truth and acting in good faith. The person making the statements, in this case Geoff, could also be acting in good faith.

It's perfectly possible and reasonable that Geoff could say nice things about Dave in magazines and videos. "Trained with him for years... learned more than any other time." etc etc. While also saying the same things about other people the calibre of Peter C, Neil Adams etc.

Now how these types of questions are asked and how resolution is achieved is how we are measured as people I believe. Do we debate and discuss or do we sling mud and vitriol. One seems sensible to me the other is the rouote by which a million other forums fell to shit.

cheers all
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Re: MMA and RBSD

Post  Blackshield on Thu Aug 24, 2006 5:46 am

with the greatest respect to everyone involved - this isn't a geoff thompson forum anymore - I like all his stuff, but i don't think we need to harp on about the guy - personally I have never been to bothered by the whole, 'who taught who' thing... never thought you would see lineage argu ments outside of TMA Shocked
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Re: MMA and RBSD

Post  Socrates on Thu Aug 24, 2006 6:01 am

It's perfectly possible and reasonable that Geoff could say nice things about Dave in magazines and videos. "Trained with him for years... learned more than any other time." etc etc. While also saying the same things about other people the calibre of Peter C, Neil Adams etc.

I think Chris has hit the nail on the head there. If Geoff Thompson didnīt learn a lot from Dave Turton, why ask him to write a foreword to some of his books? Why say he was one of his big inspirations in a recent webcast? Why ask him to host a Q&A?

If you read Dave's original post carefully, what he actually said was

He came to me for tuition in how to 'fill in some gaps' he had in his methods .. not many gaps but some.. (edited down)... his grappling THEN was non-existant ( I am talking many years ago now).. when he saw a move or principle I showed him that he liked, he would want to know everything about it.. its origins etc.. so if I said.. oh thats from wrestling/judo/ju-jutsu. whatever, he wanted to know all about it..

NOw being the man he was back then, he decided the best way to know more about wrestling was to qualify as a wrestling coach.. so he did. The best way of knowing about Judo was to go to Neil Adams and qualify as a black belt.. so he did.

In other words, what Dave Turton says he did was point Geoff Thompson in a certain direction. GT went in that direction on his own.

Lito, meanwhile, says:

He did not train with you for a lot of years. He trained with you from time-to-time over a few years.

On the physical front, his system primarily revolves around Western boxing (his main artillery), judo, various forms of wrestling (e.g. freestyle, Greco-Roman, and sambo), and muay Thai with bits and pieces from a myriad of other systems/influences.

I donīt see any argument at all to be honest. Itīs like if a future superstar goes and trains with someone who keeps putting them on their back, they might say: "You should do some judo, mate." That might be a turning point for the future superstar's training. However, the future superstar might not necessarily go and learn judo from the person who pointed them in that direction.

Who is more influential, the person who shows the future superstar that they need to know judo or the person who teaches it? Who cares? It all seems a bit of a storm in a teacup to me.

The only problem comes along after the superstar is famous when all the old instructors mention on their webpages that they taught him. Best practice in these cases is to phone up the superstar and ask him if itīs OK to mention the relationship.

Personally, Iīve got a theory that 99% of the politics and bullshit in martial arts comes from the sloppy use of language in marketing material, but thatīs another story...

Peace to everyone,
RGC
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Re: MMA and RBSD

Post  Guest on Thu Aug 24, 2006 7:29 am

Nick Engelen wrote:Hi Guy,

Maybe a personal question... I've read about the gunpowderplot. Is Guy Fawkes your real name or were you inspired by the story?

Kind Regards,

Nick Engelen

Nick! This was the best post in the thread! I know you didn't mean to be funny my friend, and please don't take offence! But that post was hilarious!!!!!!!

lol!

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Re: MMA and RBSD

Post  Nick Engelen on Thu Aug 24, 2006 8:17 am

Hi Brian,

Nice to see someone is still laughing Smile

I still hope for an answer.

Things are taken far too serious... Smile

Kind Regards,

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Re: MMA and RBSD

Post  Rob Mac on Thu Aug 24, 2006 10:30 am

Hi socrates, still sweltering down here! Slightly off track here, but there is definitely a void between the two. I consider myself to have a good fighting and street background. That however is in the UK, in fact London. When you travel you realise how limited these skills are. I've always trained for fights with weapons or fists, in the area I was bought up in that was the order of the day, even now with all the hype about gun battles in London it's still rare to see them pulled out. We recently went to the states and drove up the east coast from florida to NY and it struck me how out of my depth I would be there if someone pulled a gun on me. Also it's quite evident that many places are carved up according to race, you only have to turn a corner and you start to, wrongly or rightly, feel very insecure. Fighting in a ring doesn't gear you up for this.
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Re: MMA and RBSD

Post  Atmos on Thu Aug 24, 2006 10:34 am

Both Lito and Dave T are right :

Lito is right because it's true that Geoff and Peter T are the ones who came in the front first and took the initiative to make RBSD more popular, but Dave T is right because him and other martial artists have systems just as good as Geoff's but don't get as much credits and recognition as Geoff.
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Re: MMA and RBSD

Post  Rob Mac on Thu Aug 24, 2006 10:46 am

can anyone stick to the thread? It's actually a good question and I don't give a flying giraffe who taught who.

edited for language, and because I like flying giraffes - Wink Brian S
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Re: MMA and RBSD

Post  Guest on Thu Aug 24, 2006 11:05 am

Socrates wrote:Letīs pre-empt the trolls! Smile

OK, Iīd like you all to think of a hypothetical scenario. Imagine a pro or semi-pro cage fighter in his late 20s or early 30s. Heīs a good fighter in all ranges, but heīs coming to the end of the career. Heīs won a few, lost a few, but heīs never really hit the big time. He hasnīt got any serious injuries.

Our man is now thinking of jacking it all in to become a nightclub bouncer / join the police force / go backpacking round South America / do something else where heīs likely to run into trouble. However, heīs always stayed out of trouble in the street and heīs never had to deal with weapons, multiple opponents, ambushes or anything like that. Heīs never trained for anything like this either.

Imagine that this guy asks you to design a reality-based self-defence programme for him. These are my questions:

1) What would you teach him?
2) How long would the course be?
3) Have you ever actually taught street skills to a sports fighter?
4) If so, what were their strong points and what were their weak points?
5) What (if anything) would you learn from a good MMA fighter?

Over to you guys...

Have fun with it!
RGC

There, maybe that will refocus people. Over to you guys!

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Re: MMA and RBSD

Post  Rob Mac on Thu Aug 24, 2006 11:27 am

sorry Brian about the f word, just a bit frustrated as the post is an interesting one. As I said earlier the differences between RBSD AND MMA are vast. Magnified when you travel and come across different levels/types of violence, and also pre-conceptions. The example I gave about the U.S is a valid one, there is a massive difference between what you need to know in the U.K compared to U.S
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Re: MMA and RBSD

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