MMA and RBSD

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Re: MMA and RBSD

Post  lazy fighter on Fri Aug 18, 2006 12:58 pm

I would never denigrate RBSD, it's essential for anyone to get at least the basics. MMA doesn't have all the answers, you're right, but a lot of folks on this forum swear by boxing and judo as all you need for self defence. I think MMA gives you that and a whole lot more!
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Re: MMA and RBSD

Post  Line of Eld on Fri Aug 18, 2006 5:31 pm

A few thoughts:-

MMA bouts are just that: MMA bouts. The fighters are as aware as anyone else that what they are doing is a sporting contest the same as a Muay Thai bout or Judo bout. Yes, some fighters opt to try for a takedown in the same way as some Judo players are ne-waza specialists.

However, this doesn't mean that MMA gyms are full of people who believe that this is also a desirable strategy for the real world. I think if you check you will find that most people who train MMA have arrived at the same commonsense realisation as anyone else: that the ground is the last place you want to stay in a self defence situation.

In relation to the groundwork, I'd repeat my earlier point that if a fight accidentally goes to the ground, then the ground component of MMA offers escapes and general training in regaining positional dominance that is going to be crucial in getting back to your feet.

Everyone who says that the ground is an undesirable place to be in the real world is 100% correct. But IMO, the best way to address that is to have a strong level of clinch to prevent takedowns and stay on your feet, and to also prepare your groundgame to enable you to regain standing position. MMA caters to both.

In fact, more and more of an emphasis has been placed on an approach to MMA based on 'sprawling and brawling' rather than looking for a submission on the ground. If someone comes out of an MMA gym then they are not necessarily someone who is going to primarily have strong ground skills. They might mainly be orientated towards Muay Thai, or towards judo, but with competency in other areas. They might also be a kali player on the side. They might have a glock in their gym bag (like one of the Gracie brothers, as turned out a few years back).


For the record I have nothing against it...for what it is...but I do have an issue when they a) denigrate what I do, and b) tell people their stuff is all they need for self protection.

Well, if someone denigrates someone's elses work unfairly and unreasonably, then they're out of order, no argument there. I actually abhor this RBSD vs MMA debate, because it's such an artificial construction, with both 'sides' constructing a lot of straw dummies to knock down.

On the second point, If someone is training someone purely in MMA, and tells them that that is the same as training self-protection, then I think they are incorrect. They'll be missing the crucial soft skills training in pre and post fight, and may not necessarily be exposed to weapons at all. However, I think it is fair to say that they are receiving a second-to-none platform of athleticism and ability in standup clinch and ground upon which to build beyond:-

This is probably better articulated by some of the posters on TPI (Total Protection Interactive http://totalprotectioninteractive.com/forum/ ) such as Belisarius and Paul Sharp. Over there, the emphasis is not so much on what MMA is or is not, but more how they can seamlessly integrate their MMA work into their weapon work and soft-skills.

Hope this gives you a better idea of where I'm coming from.
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Re: MMA and RBSD

Post  Sea Bass on Fri Aug 18, 2006 6:20 pm

For one I would give them a copy of The Fence to read. They already have the skills, they just need to change ther mindset. Have them focus on eye strikes and strikes to the throat. Any hit the will destroy them as soon as possible. Emphasize never go to the ground and if you do, do every thing in your power to get up such as biting more eye gouging and so on.
give them a course on the aftermath of the fight, such as what and what not to say to the authorities.
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Re: MMA and RBSD

Post  xm15nytyme on Fri Aug 18, 2006 11:55 pm

um... who's swearing by boxing or judo?


i'd love to argue over this acronym pissing contest... but to us who aren't wildly defending a specific style... you're screaming "my right hook it totally different than your overhand sweeping right."
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Re: MMA and RBSD

Post  peterM on Sat Aug 19, 2006 3:43 am

"Acronym pissing contest"

What acronym are you referring to? Are there any in this discussion?

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Re: MMA and RBSD

Post  Frodor on Sat Aug 19, 2006 5:10 am

Nytyme, Geoff T has long been an advocate of Judo and Boxing for SD: in fact I was watching one of his DVDs a couple of days ago where he said that was why he'd put his son into those two sports. Wink

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Re: MMA and RBSD

Post  Socrates on Sat Aug 19, 2006 8:20 am

a lot of folks on this forum swear by boxing and judo as all you need for self defence

Lazy Fighter/everyone else:

Ive started a poll on another thread to see what people think is the best support system. You can find it at [/url]http://selfprotection.lightbb.com/viewtopic.forum?t=218
[url]

I know Geoff Thompson advocated boxing and judo as the best support system, but this is no longer his message board. Lets see what the members think. Get voting!

All the best,
RGC
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Re: MMA and RBSD

Post  xm15nytyme on Sat Aug 19, 2006 8:57 am

Cheers, thanks Fraser.

He doesn't say it's all you need does he?
it's probably a support or foundation for him, like Socrates is saying... not the end all be all.
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Re: MMA and RBSD

Post  Line of Eld on Sat Aug 19, 2006 11:43 am

If I recall correctly, Geoff wrote that about judo and boxing in the context of a hypothetical question about being limited to two arts.

Unless I remember wrong, he said that if he were limited to one method, it would be boxing, based on the logic that his hands were his primary tools and gelled well with the fence. If allowed two arts, then he would add judo to this mix. If allowed three, then he would add "ferocious" Muay Thai.

At the time he wrote this, the proliferation of quality MMA instruction around the country hadn't really kicked off yet. The SBGi weren't around, London Shootfighters weren't up and running and so on and so forth. Geoff himself played a role as a pioneer in the sense that from the start he favoured combat sports as delivery systems for his approach to self protection, and recognised that it was ideal to train more than one of them to cover multiple ranges. I think Geoff was definitley ahead of his time in this respect, and I think elements of the self protection community could benefit from re-examining why he was originally an advocate of combat sports training methods.

A lot of MMA gyms are emphasising greco-roman wrestling in their training, which I something Geoff was also a pioneer of. He recognised that it is an awesome system for controlling the upper body and executing absolutely crushing takedowns with. It has even been adapted into stuff like Karl Tanswell's STAB system, for use against edged weapons.

I would hazard a guess that if Geoff were to reformulate his list of training choices, he would slot quality MMA training in there somewhere. I wonder whether judo would still be his first choice for a grappling-based delivery system, or whether he would opt for the no-gi mixture of judo, greco and freestyle wrestling taught in most MMA gyms?


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Re: MMA and RBSD

Post  Mojo Jojo on Sat Aug 19, 2006 1:20 pm

Line of Eld,

Good points there mate.

I don't think that most members believe MMA to be a load of bollocks. It's just that what is missing in MMA (and other arts) are the soft skills and a clear understanding of the distinction between a fair matchfight and the unpredictabilities of everyday life.


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Re: MMA and RBSD

Post  Socrates on Sun Aug 20, 2006 6:40 am

I think Luciano has hit the nail on the head. Nobody's saying dont do MMA. If you do do it, though, make sure youre aware that it needs a little bit of adaption for the street. After all, even Bas Rutten cross-trained in krav maga when he worked as a bounder...
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Re: MMA and RBSD

Post  peterM on Sun Aug 20, 2006 2:25 pm

"when he worked as a bounder..."

Yes, he was a complete cad.

I suspect that Krav Maga needed Bas Rutten more than Bas needed Krav.

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Re: MMA and RBSD

Post  Dave Turton on Sun Aug 20, 2006 5:45 pm

Right .. I have to be a bit careful here with this one..

I taught Geoff for a lot of years, and most of the stuff he ended up doing as his system of street combat was based around what I taught him.. God that sounds so egotisitial.. not let me re-phrase it..

Geoff was a combat sponge middle name "Oliver Twist" (compliment by the way)..
He came to me for tuition in how to 'fill in some gaps' he had in his methods .. not many gaps but some.. his karate had waned with the introduction of boxing punches, re-adapted for the street.. his grappling THEN was non-existant ( I am talking many years ago now)..

when he saw a move or principle I showed him that he liked, he would want to know everything about it.. its origins etc.. so if I said.. oh thats from wrestling/judo/ju-jutsu. whatever, he wanted to know all about it..

NOw being the man he was back then, he decided the best way to know more about wrestling was to qualify as a wrestling coach.. so he did.
The best way of knowing about Judo was to go to Neil Adams and qualify as a black belt.. so he did.

Now I know I might make myself a bit unpopular here, but Geoff's system is excellent, but ONLY 80% complete..

Geoff's methods have weaknesses that I have discussed with him.. but for 99% of the population, those weaknesses wont become apparant for many years.. by then they will be advanced enough to know they exist.

MMA is not really all that new per se.. its just ORGANISED MMA is new and good stuff it is.. but it is LESS complete for self-defence than Geoff's system ..

What was called 'Cross Training' is not a new phenomena.. we did it in the 60's and called it "Mix 'n Match"

Kenshiro Abbe did it in the 30's 40's and 50's and called it BUDO (all the martial arts combined)..

Shuichi Nagaoka did it at the turn of the 19th and 20th centuries by getting black belts in 6 arts and mixing them all together

historically Geoff isnt unique, but his TIMING was excellent.. the martial arts world needed a Geoff Thompson..an we got one..

but also remember that as good as Geoff was.. he had people who taught him, and who taught THEM ad infinitum

I was honoured to be just ONE of Geoff's tutors, although he did quite kindly say he had learned more form me than from anyone else... but I think he was just being nice

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Re: MMA and RBSD

Post  Socrates on Tue Aug 22, 2006 8:30 am

OK, weve got 25 votes in on the "best support system" thread. The clear winner so far, with 28%, is that it doesnt matter what system you do as long as the instructor is good. MMA came in joint second place with Goshinkwai /SDF (16% each).

The boxing / judo combo came in joint fourth place with combatives (12% each). Hardcore TMA, running away, senshido and something else all got 4%. Nobody voted for JKD / eclectic cross-training, wrestling or Muay Thai / BJJ.

(The thread is still open if anyone else wants to vote)

Im pleased that the good instructor option won. It seems obvious to me - find the best instructor you can locally (whatever the style), learn as much as you can with them and then patch up any weaknesses that you find. For example, if you live near a good MMA gym, go for it!

If you do train MMA, I think the only bit of advice most people on here would give would be to do a few RBSD seminars / classes to cover the missing areas in terms of self-defence. That takes us back to where this thread started...
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Re: MMA and RBSD

Post  Lito on Tue Aug 22, 2006 1:22 pm

Hey Dave T,
You need to be even more careful about what you say. I mean no offense but you've given yourself far too much credit on the amount of influence you've had on Geoff. I apologize beforehand if what I am about to say hurts your feeling but the record needs to be set straight...

You said:
I taught Geoff for a lot of years, and most of the stuff he ended up doing as his system of street combat was based around what I taught him.. God that sounds so egotisitial..

It is egotistical. And it's not true. His system of street combat is mainly based around the real-world experiences he had as a bouncer and miscellaneous street situations heavily fortified with the on-the-job tutelage he received from John "Awesome" Anderson and select training. He did not train with you for a lot of years. He trained with you from time-to-time over a few years.

On the physical front, his system primarily revolves around Western boxing (his main artillery), judo, various forms of wrestling (e.g. freestyle, Greco-Roman, and sambo), and muay Thai with bits and pieces from a myriad of other systems/influences. What he advocates as the physical core of his system has been battle-tested and combat-proven through his actual experiences/observations and Animal Day sessions. Now, let me preface this by saying he's not limited to these systems. They are just the ones he's found to be most applicable in real combat. His system is one of the most (noticed, I didn't say "the most" or "the best") conceptually, pragmatically, and empirically-based that I have ever studied. It is the one I am proud and honored to be associated with. In my opinion, Geoff's Real Combat System is what Bruce Lee's Jeet Kune Do aspired to be.

Dave, what Geoff learned from you was in the "bits and pieces" category. He really appreciated the knowledge you shared with him especially the historical aspects. He was doing his "thing" (awareness, assessment, deception, surprise, line-ups, preemption, etc) long before he "studied" with you. On a related note, Geoff and Peter Consterdine were the first to publicly advocate/teach preemption on a wide scale basis (via magazine articles, books, and videos). Let me preface this by saying they never once claimed to be the ones who "invented" preemption, many were doing it way before them. It's been the tactic of choice in all arenas of combat since the dawn of man. Anyway, it's interesting to note that Geoff and Peter were initially consider blasphemous for espousing preemption to the masses but when the truth could no longer be denied, everyone and their fathers began claiming they were teaching it all along or before they did, AFTER they introduced it. Hmmm...

You said:
Now I know I might make myself a bit unpopular here, but Geoff's system is excellent, but ONLY 80% complete..

80% complete? Based on what criteria? Holes can be punched in any system including yours Dave. First of all, Geoff has NEVER said his Real Combat System was a "complete" system or "the best." He established his system, and laid it down on paper and video for all the learn from, based on the concepts, principles, strategies, tactics, and techniques he's found to be useful in the realm of real-world combat derived from the experiences, training, observations, and reflections he's personally gone through. That's all; nothing more, nothing less.

In the sphere of martial arts/self-protection, "complete" is relative and subjective. In a fantasy world of "robotic" humans, if there was one complete system, every enthusiast and their brothers would be studying it and all others would become obsolete. But as you know, that's just not the case in the real-world. We are all distinct individuals with varying strengths and weaknesses, potentials and limitations, likes and dislikes, and preferences. With that, no one system will ever be "complete" for everybody. Thousands of systems, styles, and methods exist and thrive because of our "human-ness."

You said:
...although he did quite kindly say he had learned more form me than from anyone else... but I think he was just being nice

Geoff is a very gracious man who is secure with himself. So much so that he doesn't mind when people who've had an influence on him (no matter how small) use him to promote themselves. I've remained silent for a few years now out of courtesy and discretion but no more. You've tooted your horn one too many times at the expense of Geoff under the guise of false humility and it's time to speak out. Enough already Dave, stand on your own merits and simply be a true friend to Geoff.

Pardon my deviation from the topic of this thread.

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Re: MMA and RBSD

Post  Dave Turton on Tue Aug 22, 2006 2:14 pm

out of curtesy to you I wont answer what I am thinking of saying.. because once again its not the first time you have mis-read a deal of what I said..

I never said ANY system was 100% including my own.. I use the criteria that Geoff has gaps in .... oh sod it its not even worth trying to explain to you when you leap in guns blazing like you often do

stuff it I dont need it

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Re: MMA and RBSD

Post  Dave Turton on Wed Aug 23, 2006 7:20 am

I have contacted Chris regarding this thread, and Lito's rather vitriolic dig at me, which I feel should have been done via PM,s.. but anyway thats passed, and feel now it has deviated in the way it HAS, it should be closed after this post...

The whole essence of my original post was to get a discussion going, which has failed and frankly, if Geoff (NOT LITO) has any qualms about anything I have said about Geoff.. Geoff knows my number and/or should have contacted me himself personally...

END OF THIS TOPIC

sorry to forumites if anyone is uncomfortable with this

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Re: MMA and RBSD

Post  Socrates on Wed Aug 23, 2006 7:23 am

Another solution would be to delete DT's comments about GT's system, Lito's reply and any subsequent posts that mention the issue. We could then leave this thread open as the cross-over between MMA and RBSD is something that will come up again and again in the future.
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Re: MMA and RBSD

Post  Line of Eld on Wed Aug 23, 2006 7:54 am

I agree that this thread should be left in place- at some point every board about self-protection will discuss mixed martial arts and combat sports, and so far this has been quite an even-handed treatment of the topic.

As to whether posts should be deleted or split off into their own thread, I think Lito, as an admin, will rightfully make the call on that one way or the other.

---

Getting back on topic, I will say that I think a lot of the controversy surrounding MMA in the self protection community possibly arises from a category mistake (a semantic or ontological confusion stemming from, roughly problems with definitions of things).

I would interpet Self Protection as being an ideology or goal that informs the overall direction of someone's training, whereas individual combat sports I would see only as delivery systems.

Someone can take a delivery system like Muay Thai and depending on their intention it can be either a recreational past-time, a high-level sport to compete in, or an efficient way to learn stand-up self defence skills. The delivery system remains largely the same, it is the use it is put to which differs.

Where MMA fits in depends on your perspective on how to define it. Some people think it has developed to the point that everyone is doing more or less the same blend of arts, so it has become pretty homogenised for the moment. Or you could still look at it as a collection of delivery systems crosstrained together. I don't think it would matter so much- the point in relation to Muay Thai would also be true of it.

Someone might train according to a Self Protection ethos and not utilise any combat sports as their delivery system. Maybe they are using WWII combatives (which are pretty much a historically-specific delivery system, differing from Dennis Martin's definition of combatives as 'anything which works in a fight'), or some fillipino methods.

But to return to my earlier point about Geoff Thompson, I would advocate that they return to his writings and see why he favoured combat sports as his delivery system.

I have my own ideas about this:-

'Competition' is often thought of as being synonymous with 'Sport', which has is in turn associated with sportsmanship and recreational enjoyment, both concepts inimical to the reality of fighting. However, the original root meaning of the word competition derives from two latin words and means (basically) 'to aspire together'. It entails, at bedrock, the principle of people actively competing with one another in order to stimulate mutual development.

This is as the core of every combat sports delivery system, and I think it is what makes them so effective as forms of preparation. This person-to-person competitive element where time is put in against someone who is actually trying to 'defeat' you in training builds a resillience and toughness that non-competitive methods tend to lack. For this reason, IMO, criticisms of competition-based training methods as being lacking because they are 'only sport' are quite ironic.


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Re: MMA and RBSD

Post  edbaker on Wed Aug 23, 2006 7:59 am

I should probably leave this well alone and am leaving myself open to attacks but.....

Maybe we lost sight of a few important fundamentals with those recent angry posts.

Nobody is saying any system is better than another in every way, and/or that one individual is better/worse/the first/last be all or end all.

We are all students of martial arts and self-defence - two areas of study as old as the human race. We can all learn from each other and we must remember the that the teacher-student relationship is a two way street.

It upsets me to read about two individuals like lito and dave t having a go when in reality they are united by their subject of argument -geoff thomson.

I don't know either man but I have a great respect for dave as i have read his articles and posts and believe him to be an obviously intelligent, repescted and knowledgable man. From what lito says he is clearly a devotee of sd etc and a fan of geoff so what's the issue?

I don't think dave was glory-hunting, and geoff wouldn't have him on his forum if he was a fake so let's drop all this nonsense and carry on with the topic of discussion - the founding rule of this forum and the old one was RESPECT.
So let's be nice to each other - fucks sake we have nothing to prove here.
Ed.
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Re: MMA and RBSD

Post  Frodor on Wed Aug 23, 2006 8:01 am

Excellent post Line of Eld. That sums it up nicely. Cool

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Re: MMA and RBSD

Post  Chris on Wed Aug 23, 2006 8:16 am

All,

Let's regain some traction here.

The discussion was self protection and MMA so let's concentrate on that.

I'm not removing any comments because we're all big boys here and should be able to stand by what we say in public. I just ask that we move on or keep any personal issues to e-mails and pm's where they always should have been.

cheers
Chris
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Re: MMA and RBSD

Post  Lito on Wed Aug 23, 2006 2:07 pm

Hi Everyone,
I apologize if I've made some of you uncomfortable with my post but I stand by what I wrote publicly. I did consider going the PM route and have done so on previous occasions. However, in this instance, I believe its purpose would not have been served properly.

When someone has the wherewithal to publicly post claims on a consistent basis that are not true (or are "true" only in their own mind), and, especially at the expense of another person, if no one speaks up publicly, with the actual truth, to refute what is being perpetuated, then those false claims become accepted as the gospel "truth." That's not right.

To modify an Edmund Burke quote, "Lies triumph when the truth does nothing."

I really don't care when people perpetuate their "truths,"/their "realities" to build themselves up and/or influence others so long as it's not at the expense of another person.

Now, in the whole scheme of things, this is "small stuff." So, let's move on; enough has been said...

Take Care,
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Re: MMA and RBSD

Post  mattyboy on Wed Aug 23, 2006 2:20 pm

Sorry to butt in, but I for one dont appreciate the nature or spirit of your posts on this thread at all Lito..Im sure Geoff can speak for himself..and since DT was a revered Moderator on Geoffs website I would guess at Geoffs invitation i dont see any conflict in what Dave is saying and what Geoff has said in the past...

Im angry because I think if one of us normal bods had written in this way attacking a fellow member and revered contributer we would of been banned or severley reprimanded..I think youre getting away with it as an Admin guy...no disrespect but you dont do yourself any favours attacking Dave in this way...

I dont like it..and felt i should air my views as a normal forum member and participant....these forums have always been about RESPECT and we lose that then we become like every where else....



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Re: MMA and RBSD

Post  Guest on Wed Aug 23, 2006 3:07 pm

Nah. Chill out. Wink

Two guys are having a disagreement. Things like this can clear the air, and then they either agree of agree to differ.

They're both top guys in every respect, and neither of them need any of us to fight their battles for them.

Adults occasionally have a fall out. Theres no needs for anyone else to take sides and join in, is there?

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Re: MMA and RBSD

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