MMA and RBSD

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MMA and RBSD

Post  Socrates on Wed Aug 16, 2006 1:43 am

Lets pre-empt the trolls! Smile

OK, Id like you all to think of a hypothetical scenario. Imagine a pro or semi-pro cage fighter in his late 20s or early 30s. Hes a good fighter in all ranges, but hes coming to the end of the career. Hes won a few, lost a few, but hes never really hit the big time. He hasnt got any serious injuries.

Our man is now thinking of jacking it all in to become a nightclub bouncer / join the police force / go backpacking round South America / do something else where hes likely to run into trouble. However, hes always stayed out of trouble in the street and hes never had to deal with weapons, multiple opponents, ambushes or anything like that. Hes never trained for anything like this either.

Imagine that this guy asks you to design a reality-based self-defence programme for him. These are my questions:

1) What would you teach him?
2) How long would the course be?
3) Have you ever actually taught street skills to a sports fighter?
4) If so, what were their strong points and what were their weak points?
5) What (if anything) would you learn from a good MMA fighter?

Over to you guys...

Have fun with it!
RGC
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Re: MMA and RBSD

Post  Frodor on Wed Aug 16, 2006 6:23 am

Context is everything. Someone with a MMA background already has the physical skills. I'd spend most of the training time on soft skills, and optimising his physical skills for real-world conditions. I wouldn't bother trying to change his striking- if he's confident punching then fine.

What would a MMA fighter bring to the table? Work rate. Pain tolerance. Willingness to close and deal with an enemy. Strength and conditioning. Footwork.

Weak points? They'll have trained for one opponent. Some work against multiples will sort that out.

How long would it take? long enough to master the Fence. Once he's got that he's pretty much sorted.


Last edited by on Wed Aug 16, 2006 12:16 pm; edited 1 time in total

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Re: MMA and RBSD

Post  Socrates on Wed Aug 16, 2006 6:39 am

Hi Fraser. By soft skills, do you mean things like awareness training, target hardening and so on?
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Re: MMA and RBSD

Post  Atmos on Wed Aug 16, 2006 7:11 am

I think he'd better train to fight under adrenaline and cope with it.

I've heard from many fighters that during a match fight, they try to remain as calm as possible and avoid adrenaline rushes, because it tires them quickly. On the streets it's probably impossible to not feel scared and adrenalised, and you have to use it at your advantage instead of fighting it.
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Re: MMA and RBSD

Post  Frodor on Wed Aug 16, 2006 7:26 am

Oops. I meant to explain that Socrates. Embarassed

Yup, that was exactly what I meant by soft skills. Interpersonal skills, knowledge of criminal tactics, observation and threat assessment, home and travel security.

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Re: MMA and RBSD

Post  Dave Turton on Wed Aug 16, 2006 7:51 am

I am thinking on similar lines ..
He has power, skill, aggression etc already .. he needs some understanding in PRE and POST fight skills..
and an understanding that MMA is usually 'one on one' not a possible gang scenario.

simple adaptations from the arena to the street

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Re: MMA and RBSD

Post  Socrates on Wed Aug 16, 2006 7:53 am

Hi Dave. Thanks for the answer. Roughly how many classes do you think it would take for our hypothetical fighter to adapt MMA skills to the street?
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Re: MMA and RBSD

Post  Alan Bec on Wed Aug 16, 2006 11:15 am

How long would the course be?

Depends how long he has got.

If he leaves next week, the course would be one week.

If he leaves next year then the course can be spread out and more area covered in more depth.



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Re: MMA and RBSD

Post  Socrates on Wed Aug 16, 2006 1:07 pm

Cheers Alan. Silly question, I s'pose. The reason I was interested is the next time someone comes on here and tells us we should all give up what were doing and join an MMA club, I'd like to be able to say: "Do you realize you only need (??) classes with (??? ???) in order to convert your MMA skills into RBSD skills?"
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Re: MMA and RBSD

Post  Alan Bec on Wed Aug 16, 2006 1:30 pm

I have never really got too deep into those debates, i always thought they were a touch futile with neither side giving in and no one being converted.

When you think about it, the more time that you devote to either the more proficient you will become.

I have heard of lads getting into mma and within a very short time being allowed to fight so I suppose it works both ways.


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Re: MMA and RBSD

Post  xm15nytyme on Wed Aug 16, 2006 1:37 pm

Why not explain that most RBSD is MMA?

I take Krav Maga... not RBSD, but has RBSD applications.

Nick teaches FIST... that's heavily influenced through all his experience.

Dave's got the SDF, many influences there.

Basically, you trumpt the argument by saying "uh, already doing it... try to be more informed"
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Re: MMA and RBSD

Post  Socrates on Wed Aug 16, 2006 2:25 pm

Ive got a better idea. Why dont we have a sweepstake on when the first MMA troll shows up? We could also have a sweepstake on the first member to hit 1,000 posts...
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Re: MMA and RBSD

Post  xm15nytyme on Wed Aug 16, 2006 2:38 pm

hahah does the first MMA troll win a visit from Nick? affraid
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Re: MMA and RBSD

Post  dik on Wed Aug 16, 2006 2:47 pm

The only thing I'd add is that some MMA fighters I've faced in the suit have been very biased towards going to ground and staying there.
Therefore I'd like to see what his/her natural response was and make sure that it wasn't the sort of thing that would get them into trouble against multiples and/or armed oponents.

Dik

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Re: MMA and RBSD

Post  edbaker on Wed Aug 16, 2006 3:06 pm

Hi, have to agree with Dik on his point - a lot of MMA fighters go to ground and go to their back and this is bad news in the street - it's basically suicide. If you go there you need to get dominant, on top, finish it and/or return to standing asap.

In addition, lots of wrestlers/grapplers throw on the mat, with their arms under the oppponent and their bodies hitting the ground too - you will shatter your arm if you throw/takedown/suplex someone on concrete and you land on your arm, granted they will get hurt too but it is a risk.

Submissions in MMA are taught and trained, out of necessity, to go on progressively and not to do intentional damage - if you do this on the street you are finished.

Fouls and pre-empts are not taught in MMA and activley discouraged therefore they are not an integral part of the arsenal, even headbutts, stamping and kidney shots, as well as small joint manipulation, so these must be learnt.

However, for confidence, conditioning, solid techniques in striking and defence/submissions MMA is amazing, it must be rememberd that one is a sport, the other real life - I think someone on the GT forum likened it to swimming in a swimming pool vs swimming in the ocean - similar tools, totally different environment.

hope this helps. Ed

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Re: MMA and RBSD

Post  Socrates on Thu Aug 17, 2006 1:44 am

Good answers, cheers.
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Re: MMA and RBSD

Post  Nick Hughes on Thu Aug 17, 2006 6:44 am

Here's the simple question that has put an end to the debate a few times. I even got to use it last weekend at my seminar and the MMA guy saw the light.

If, in all the MMA events i.e. Pride, KI, UFC etc, you had 30 guys standing round the edges inside the ring, all wearing work boots and drinking beer, whose only job was to run in and kick the crap out of anyone who went to the floor, how many of the fights would end up on the floor? How many guys would you see shooting in to take someone to the ground? How much grappling would there be?

The environement I mention above, the guys standing round in boots, is pretty much the one I worked in for years.

Nick
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Re: MMA and RBSD

Post  Socrates on Thu Aug 17, 2006 6:54 am

If, in all the MMA events i.e. Pride, KI, UFC etc, you had 30 guys standing round the edges inside the ring, all wearing work boots and drinking beer, whose only job was to run in and kick the crap out of anyone who went to the floor, how many of the fights would end up on the floor? How many guys would you see shooting in to take someone to the ground? How much grappling would there be?

The Hughes rules would make great television, but I cant see it getting into the Olympics... Shocked
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Re: MMA and RBSD

Post  dik on Thu Aug 17, 2006 2:52 pm

Nice, I like that a lot mate.

It sounds a lot like one of Den's scenarios or our multiple attackers courses.

Dik

Nick Hughes wrote:Here's the simple question that has put an end to the debate a few times. I even got to use it last weekend at my seminar and the MMA guy saw the light.

If, in all the MMA events i.e. Pride, KI, UFC etc, you had 30 guys standing round the edges inside the ring, all wearing work boots and drinking beer, whose only job was to run in and kick the crap out of anyone who went to the floor, how many of the fights would end up on the floor? How many guys would you see shooting in to take someone to the ground? How much grappling would there be?

The environement I mention above, the guys standing round in boots, is pretty much the one I worked in for years.

Nick
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Re: MMA and RBSD

Post  Katsumoto on Thu Aug 17, 2006 3:05 pm

In the same vein as Mr Hughes' comment above, I personally witnessed some years ago a streetfight as I was walking home from a late night drinking session in the middle of one of England's largest northern cities.

Two guys were on the ground scrabbling about and one guy managed to get the 'mount' on the other guy. I was idly watching them and going about my own business when I noticed ahead of me a chap walking home with what appeared be his girlfriend. Suddenly, and for fuck knows what reason that knobheads do this, he ran straight across the street and kicked the guy on the ground in the face. No reason other than he saw a free victim and he couldn't stop himself being a total "berkshire hunt". He didn't know either of the guys in the fight, he just kicked the guy in the face then calmly walked back to his girlfriend.

So, an example of 'BJJ' meeting 'Street Reality'....
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Re: MMA and RBSD

Post  Line of Eld on Fri Aug 18, 2006 4:35 am

I think it's important to distinguish here between MMA and BJJ, first of all.

MMA entails training standup and clinch as well as ground. The clinch component is probably the most fundamental thing you can train to prevent a fight going to the ground against your will. If you have no clinch game, then you are less able to control distance and you may end up on the ground whether you think this is a tactically sound place to be or not.

If you are unlucky enough to end up on the ground, then either MMA training or just BJJ will provide you with the familliarity with escapes you need to gain positional dominance and return to your feet as quick as you can.

In a sporting competitive context some MMA players, and probably all BJJ players, might favour a ground-based approach to victory, whether it is a submissions strategy or a ground and pound game in the case of MMA. However, this does not necessarily mean they are ignorant of the problems this presents in relation to fighting multiple assailents.

The application for BJJ or other groundwork in relation to self defence is, IMO, that it enables someone to regain positional dominance and get to their feet if they end up on the ground. The application for MMA is that it has this component and also functional clinch training to enable you to stay on your feet and prevent a deliberate or accidental takedown, and standup stiking skills.

I'm not sure if the above qualifies me as the 'first MMA troll' to show up on the board. I've personally never seen a contradiciton between the MMA training that I do and the reality of needing to defend yourself. I would prefer to characterise the training method we use as being based on competitiveness and incremental resistance as opposed to being 'just sport'.
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Re: MMA and RBSD

Post  Socrates on Fri Aug 18, 2006 5:40 am

Youre certainly not a troll, mate!
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Re: MMA and RBSD

Post  lazy fighter on Fri Aug 18, 2006 9:08 am

I've made a fresh start in MA, and I've gone for MMA. At 37, I doubt I'll ever enter the cage, but I'm enjoying the training immensely.
MMA offers "battle-hardening", something that must surely be essential if your pre-empt or whatever fails. I don't favour the ground, I'd rather keep it standing either freemoving or in a clinch, but at least I have some ideas for if my opponent takes it to the ground.
Applying this to self defence, I still practise the fence and a pre-empt whenever I get the chance. I wouldn't shoot for a double leg takedown! I don't think anyone at my MMA club would. However, I know I have a few options should it go to ground either by accident or by my opponent's design.
I don't know why everyone thinks that an MMA fighter would automatically take it to the ground in a street fight, I honestly don't know any at my club who would!
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Re: MMA and RBSD

Post  Mojo Jojo on Fri Aug 18, 2006 12:14 pm

Guess there's nothing wrong with MMA. I know that quit a few doormen use it over here. I'm just having a problem with the way its hyped and promoted (like its the one and all for self defence and more of that bs).

Luciano

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Re: MMA and RBSD

Post  Nick Hughes on Fri Aug 18, 2006 12:29 pm

All I can say is watch MMA competitions on tv...now, how many of them end up on the floor? How many would end up on the floor in my scenario mentioned above?

Also, if no one in MMA is voluntarily taking anyone down why do almost all of them end up on the floor? Someone is taking someone down right?

Last point...you will react how you train...that's the whole purpose of training. Is your training solely geared to battling one guy who weighs as much as you how is that helping you to deal with 3 guys all bigger than you who are tooled up?

For the record I have nothing against it...for what it is...but I do have an issue when they a) denigrate what I do, and b) tell people their stuff is all they need for self protection.

Nick
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Re: MMA and RBSD

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