Is it best that Self Defense training stays 'underground'?

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Is it best that Self Defense training stays 'underground'?

Post  Dave on Sun May 12, 2013 3:56 am

I had a very interesting discussion the other day with a friend of mine. This friend has a strong background in Japanese style Jiu-Jitsu and Boxing.

During our conversation we got onto the subject of combat sports and then onto self defense. My friend came up with a very interesting theory of Self Defense to be at its most effective needs to stay as an 'underground' activity. When I have asked him to elaborate he has used Gracie Jiu-Jitsu as an example.

He explained that in 1993 at the first ever UFC, (where the rules allowed head-butts, soccer kicks, stamps, and also there were no gloves, no time limits, no rounds etc.) The fights were dominated by one of if not the lightest competitor there, a fighter called Royce Gracie. He explained that Royce used Gracie Jiu-Jitsu a form of Brazilian Jiu-Jitsu (BJJ).

Although tough, he stated that Royce won the fights because he was using a system or style that the other fighters did not know and more importantly did not know how to deal with.

My friend went onto say that after the first 2 or 3 UFC's all fighters started to train in Gracie Jiu-Jitsu or BJJ. This made the Gracies extremely wealthy through there schools, books, seminars etc. It also showed fighters how to deal with the techniques as in to attack, and most importantly how to defend and read what their opponent was trying to do. Needless to say after a couple of years Gracie Jiu-Jitsu didn't dominate like it had earlier.

When I've asked him to clarify the link, he has explained that if Self Defense training became mainstream and known by tens of thousands if not hundreds of thousands. Then the Robber, Rapist, Violent Thug etc would (as a matter of evolution) change their tactics and techniques to cope with the tactics and techniques taught in self defense. Thereby rendering the Self Defense stuff much less effective.

He pointed out that if Self Defense stays an activity practiced by a few and it is relatively unknown or not understood by the mainstream then it remains effective.

It made me think of an incident told to me by a gent who used to be a regular on this very forum. He explained that he was dealing with an agitated 'bouncer' one evening (if I get the story wrong at any point I'm sure he will point it out Wink ) the incident at this time was at the talking stage. In preparation our gent has assumed the 'fence' or pre-emptive stance. His hands in a position where he could react, but in a non-threatening manner. The 'Bouncer' has noticed what was happening and said "It's alright I'm not going to kick off" This has taken our gent aback slightly as he didn't expect the bouncer to notice the 'line up'. If the bouncer was going to kick off and noticed the line-up he would have then done something to try and nullify or by-pass this tactic.

A very interesting point made by my friend, on the flip side how do people, who require self defense training then find a system or style to learn, that will be effective. If it stays underground? Is this why so many people go to other Martial Arts schools to learn 'self defense' when in reality the schools do not teach 'real self defense'?
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Re: Is it best that Self Defense training stays 'underground'?

Post  Jagunco on Sun May 12, 2013 3:45 pm

Now that is intereting...

I think we're ok though because the average rapist/mugger/attacker I think very rarely involves themselves in training. I think we have seen what you mean in that these days targets are picked and attackers numbers are larger and the use of weapons is on the up (I think) but other than that we're ok.

Also it has to be said I don't think enough people actually do self defence to make it a force prevelent to be even noticed by the above mention, who would already steer clear of known hard men or bouncers or probably anyone they didn't think they could easily combat.. unless they had about five of their mates with them. But on the whole I think 90% people who start fights win them because they start something that is obviously in their favour.

The question is more relevent to people who work in the security industry I would think. I would be surprised is doormen bodyguard and the like didn't regulary update their strategies and such. A bouncer for instance would be in far more of a position of having this arsenal known by local low life if he's been having scraps on the same pub door for however long 'Watch that one lads he does this sort of palm heel thing.'

An interesting suggestion would be though is what if all the people normally targeted by muggers and such suddenly learned targert hardening.... would the muggers of the world adapt to target hardening?
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Re: Is it best that Self Defense training stays 'underground'?

Post  Jake331 on Sun May 12, 2013 3:58 pm


Interesting one! Yes I think the big difference would be not just knowing about a secret "style/method" of fighting or self defence, but actually training in it. In the UFC example they were obviously highly motivated to learn BJJ and all the fighters have now been training in that for years. But even though BJJ/submission wrestling is now much more popular, the majority of people still don't train it, or anything else for that matter. Same goes for the Fence and the GT stuff etc, many know about it, but how many train it enough to become competent even when the brown adrenaline hits the fan outside the chippy.

If you could learn a secret method that worked just by reading about it or watching a DVD then it would be crucial to keep it secret, but if you have to put in hard training for months or years for it to be effective, then "going public" is no big deal IMHO.

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Re: Is it best that Self Defense training stays 'underground'?

Post  David Turton on Mon May 13, 2013 12:23 am

interesting ... maybe ... maybe not

it matters not a toss whether people feel something is 'underground' when you are IN the martial arts.. the truth is 90% of the population havent got a clue about 'self-defence' martial arts or sports martial arts... even (or especially) the media, who will print or broadcast some silly stories about some 125 years old yellow belt as "er dangerous granny/grandad. .. "Dont mess with Granny Smith type of shite)

Yes the Gracies did well initially simply because not so much that the BJJ they did was unknown, but that the format (rules?) of the early UFC stuff were new to other competitors.. after all the Gracies main art from the father Helio, was the old style Judo/Ju-Jutsu NOT the BJJ that they became known for.

self-defence is exactly the same .... 90% of the population (again) will not have a clue about the methods of the Fence or the Guard etc... anything used by a trained person will be a surprise to an UN trained person

I was honoured to have had several years with Geoff Thompson when I was his instructor teaching him and his several excellent students at the time..

my system stems from the Warfields of South Wales and back in time from Kenshiro Abbe etc etc etc... I have 100's of books and magazines from the mid 1800's and one or two books about defence combat from centuries previously..

There are NO secret arts or styles, just some that for various reasons havent been exposed as much as others that have tried to go the sports route or any other route..

OVER 90% (that figure again ha ha) of the populations understanding of any form of martial arts is via the tv or the cinema or even the X-Box PS3 stuff

those IN think differently than those OUT ... I for example know what Water Polo IS ... but have never played it, never watched it etc... so can I name the UK teams Captain.. can I hell .. yet efficacious followers WILL know that because they are IN ...

hidden doesnt mean secret it means not popular etc... get real and dont turn something that has existed for millenia (self-defence/self-protection) into something is isnt, simply because the vast percentage (not 90% this time ) into something it clearly isnt.

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Re: Is it best that Self Defense training stays 'underground'?

Post  Sven on Mon May 13, 2013 3:05 am

When we accept that "underground" does not (necessarily) mean "hidden" or "illegal", it all comes down to marketing. Most practiced SD or MA is not always the best, and vice versa. Indeed, there is no ultimate fighting style but there can be styles best tailored for specific scenarios or format. That does'nt make them the ultimate choice overall, only for, say, UFC format.
Can this afforementioned best tailored style emerge from seemingly nowhere, form "underground"? Sure. Example from different field, nobody knew about Susan Boyle, though I suspect she could sing even before the talent show. She had sung before, no doubt, but she had not been marketed. Was'nt she an "underground" singer too, then?
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Re: Is it best that Self Defense training stays 'underground'?

Post  David Turton on Mon May 13, 2013 3:52 am

Mmm .. good points but I am not convinced..

The Susan Boyle example is slightly flawed.. 100's of people knew about her prior to her appearance on a national TV show.. millions after it granted

she wasnt 'underground' but relatively unknown ... not the same

given that Man from early origins of Neanderthal to Homo Sapiens had always fought to defend themselves... all that was missing was public interest at all times

warriors and soldiers have always played a minor percentage of actual population per country the 'combat' had the similar acceptance and understanding

martial art/SD styles dont 'emerge' from underground... they are 'accepted' by a wider audience, which has little to do with marketing per se, but PUBLICITY..

the media of centuries ago was 'word of mouth' then the printed word.. (only useful to those who could read and write .. a very small percentage at one point in history)
technology via improved printing, newspapers, radio, TV Cinema and so on brought 'minor' hobbies/sports etc to the public fore... but they were never HIDDEN or UNDERGROUND... they were always there

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Re: Is it best that Self Defense training stays 'underground'?

Post  Dave on Mon May 13, 2013 4:56 am

For the sake of argument even if the word 'underground' was replaced with the word 'unknown' the rest of the point my friend makes remains the same. Also it seems to me that it is obvious that muggers, rapists etc would alter their approach if the majority of people became more aware, a harder target or physically more capable to deal with attackers.

An example of this can be seen through the history in Police work detecting crimes and finding offenders. The police came up with the fingerprint identification system so the criminals wore gloves. The Police could track offenders from abandoned getaway vehicles through forensic evidence so the offenders started burning the vehicles. CCTV use by Police offenders change clothing or wear hats / balaclavas disguises or choose spots were there is no CCTV coverage, muggers often use weapons or numbers this is probably due to the fact that they don't know if the victim is a bit handy. Offenders / attackers what ever you want to call them will, through evolution, change their plans to suit what they can expect from their target and the Police.

Only na´ve people think that criminals are stupid. They may lead a life that seems distasteful to us as decent people. But in their chosen field they can be (not all but some and possibly the one you have to deal with) quite skilled.

I know of several weight training gyms and MMA / Boxing gyms that are attended by criminals regularly (usually of a daytime as they don't work) when the rest of us are at work a lot of these lads are getting bigger stronger and more skilled in what they do. Most of these lads do so because they live the life of drug dealing, business robbery etc. But what's to say that you wont have a problem with these lads during a night out or if they decide to car jack you because you have a shiny new car. Does it help you if the Self Protection tactics that you use are well known to the likes of these, I'd probably think not.

To touch on the Susan Boyle scenario, can you remember the shocked look on the judges faces when she started singing. For a couple of seconds they didn't know what to do or say because they were not prepared for what happened. Is this not the response that we want from offenders / attackers (those couple of seconds can make all the difference in a possible violent situation). Now she is well known everyone knows what to expect and although she is still very good the shock value is no longer there.
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Re: Is it best that Self Defense training stays 'underground'?

Post  David Turton on Mon May 13, 2013 7:38 am

are you trying to say that criminals have only recently caught on to understanding SD methods to combat them

over 3 centuries ago they were publicized as doing just that

The 'hooligans' as they were known, named after a 'boisterous' Irish family did just that.. they took self defence lessons to learn how to combat them

again your response re: Susan Boyle is not all that valid.. this was a deliberate show that 'deliberately' had no-hopers on just for the purpose of entertainment

Yes the judges were shocked, but only because her visuality had preceded their thoughts... the 'talent' was always there and known to others already

this has little to do with what the criminal world would expect from their victims

sudden adrenaline rush is what they want with a temporarily inactive brain/mind.
I know of several high ranking martial artists who have been victims of muggers or violence etc simply because they 'froze' or found themselves incapable of mounting a defence... nothing to do with the criminals having a pre-conceived idea of what kind of physical defence their intended victims would or would not put up...

your points re fingerprints etc are correct but not a valid counter point regarding 'underground' self defence... History has shown us that technological advances are made quicker in times of war than in times of peace, simply to 'trump' the enemies cards as it were....

this is natural progress and nothing what so ever to do with anything being underground then overt....

All advances in anything are constantly improved on... cars with seat belts etc became law... we simply followed trends... there is absolutely nothing underground about self defence.. I started in it in 1960 and started teaching in 1975...... little has changed in principle.. after all Julius Ceaser was stabbed in exactly the same way as thousands of other stabbing victims since then

one point about publicity is the making a better mouse trap analogy... "Our methods have been hidden since pre Christian times and so on" thus implying there is now open something that was once closed....

There is absolutely no evidence that the criminal fraternity has altered its 'violent' methods because of any awareness that may or may not exist thanks to the so-called emergence of underground methods..

this has been confirmed to me by 3 acquaintances whose opinions carry some weight

A high placed contact in the serious crime unit of the Home Office
A Barrister with his own chambers near me
A Justice of the Peace

where is the data evidence that this has EVER happened or indeed IS happening

Related examples of technology etc are valid but do not cross over with the idea that emerging underground SD methods are making criminals changing their methods and approaches

it is indeed a fair point for discussion which is what is going on here

thanks

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Re: Is it best that Self Defense training stays 'underground'?

Post  the spaniard on Mon May 13, 2013 11:05 am

My own opinion is that criminals are getting harder.
Many chavs in my city train boxing/kickboxing or similar combat sports so you never know who you're facing.
Even many of them are on steroids now that is fashionable to look big so you can fight and also get chavettes.
I have noticed in USA with the popularity of UFC everyone and their dog know a few basic notions of grappling,the mounted etc.
Add to that a huge wrestling influende from training in high schools and you have a hard oponent.
Street fight with a huge influence of MMA:
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Ogm--2jG8T4

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Re: Is it best that Self Defense training stays 'underground'?

Post  Chris on Mon May 13, 2013 11:45 am

I honestly don't believe that social and criminal violence has changed at all.

It is what it is and doesn't differ across the generations.

Good guys and bad guys will gravitate towards successful delivery systems for their violence and that means that some people within those two groups will actively seek out "battle" tested delivery platforms for their violent intent. Thing is, even while training in those delivery systems, I really don't believe that the face of social and criminal violence changes at all.

Do we need to concern ourselves with what the bad guys can seek out and learn in gyms and schools then of course we do. That has been the case since time began, as mentioned above there will be a percentage of any group which indulges their prediliction for violence and they will attempt to train for violence in the most efficient manner possible. There is nothing "underground" about what works and what does not. The information has been freely available since the dawn of time so we don't need to worry about whether bad guys have access to the knowledge and information to make them "successful" in their violence. The info isn't hard to find so we need to concern ourselves with what we are doing and how we are training.

MMA is the craze of the moment, fifty years ago it was boxing, twenty years ago it was Muay Thai etc etc. You watch any of those guys outside of the ring or cage and they will look almost identical in their execution of social violence.
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Re: Is it best that Self Defense training stays 'underground'?

Post  Dave on Tue May 14, 2013 4:01 am

David Turton wrote:are you trying to say that criminals have only recently caught on to understanding SD methods to combat them

over 3 centuries ago they were publicized as doing just that

The 'hooligans' as they were known, named after a 'boisterous' Irish family did just that.. they took self defense lessons to learn how to combat them

What my friend said was
'Self Defense to be at its most effective needs to stay as an 'underground' activity' (feel free to exchange underground for not well known)
By this he meant that if the tactics, techniques etc used are, at the moment, not widely known so there is less chance of your 'attacker' expecting you to use them, as how can the attacker have a contingency plan for something he has no knowledge of.


"There is absolutely no evidence that the criminal fraternity has altered its 'violent' methods because of any awareness that may or may not exist thanks to the so-called emergence of underground methods.." (quote from Dave Turton)

My friend never said that self defense had become more well known by the criminal fraternity, he said that for it (self defense) to be at its most effective it needs to stay 'underground' (underground is just his way of saying not well known.)

For me what he says makes perfect sense and the Gracie Ju-Jitsu example explains it as clear as day. Very Happy

This piece probably deserves a separate post but, I personally believe that a small percentage of criminals are becoming more well versed in 'fighting' be it MMA / boxing
Also the use of steroids, cocaine, amphetamine etc is something that can and is used by people and it does make a difference when they become violent I have seen it first hand in recent years.
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Re: Is it best that Self Defense training stays 'underground'?

Post  Chris on Tue May 14, 2013 4:09 am

I think there is a percentage of bad guys who will train to become better at delivering violence. As I said above, nothing unusual in that.

They also are happy to partake in narcotics and alcohol to lose inhibitions and fear during the violence. That's as old as violence itself, many many tales of warriors across the millenia taking whatever substance was at hand to make them more aggressive, less afraid and less inhibited in battle.

it's a interesting topic though, I DO think that you are generally beaten by what you don't know. I don't ever want to be surprised. I don't mind being rocked by the successful application but I would REALLY mind being shocked.

The answer is probably somewhere in the middle here, like a lot of things. Yes, it's good to know something that the other guy doesn't. BUT... I honestly don't think that many bad guys at a certain level know more or less than their counterparts have known conceptually. They will simply gravitate towards success.
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Re: Is it best that Self Defense training stays 'underground'?

Post  Ace Ventura on Wed May 15, 2013 5:43 am

There seems to be some confusion in this thread about 'bad guys'.

If the bad guys are looking for fights on a friday night up the pub then they may be training kickboxing or MMA or something but the fights they will get into will probably be with the same sort of demographic. Others may get involved but is usually social violence and therefore avoidable by keeping the ego in check. These guys may be training.

The other type of bad guy, the mugger or rapist, the predatory violence criminal, I would say is unlikely to be activley training and will rely on other methods, weapons, guile etc. They will not want to get into a 'fight' and any violence will not be for status gain, so therefore not 'training'.

Personally I believe in people, not systems and do not believe that having an 'underground' style will make that much difference.

I also believe that we are talking about the arse end of self defence, the physical and any system that is saying it teaches self defence should be eaching the soft stuff as well, maybe scematics about the title?

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Re: Is it best that Self Defense training stays 'underground'?

Post  jasonr on Wed May 15, 2013 7:03 am

I think it's a mistake to have an assumption as to who you might come up against. Hopefully, it's an unskilled idiot. Clearly there are more unskilled idiots than trained fighters out there, but who knows? You might end up getting targeted by a gym junkie, semi pro mma fighter. They're out there. The key is to assume the worst and to get as good as you possibly can - get fit, get strong, get skilled. Spending your time looking for the next secret technqiue is time badly spent. The answers are in front of your nose. The challenge is to get good at them.


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Re: Is it best that Self Defense training stays 'underground'?

Post  Mr Nobody on Wed May 15, 2013 7:05 pm

Ace Ventura wrote:There seems to be some confusion in this thread about 'bad guys'.

If the bad guys are looking for fights on a friday night up the pub then they may be training kickboxing or MMA or something but the fights they will get into will probably be with the same sort of demographic. Others may get involved but is usually social violence and therefore avoidable by keeping the ego in check. These guys may be training.

The other type of bad guy, the mugger or rapist, the predatory violence criminal, I would say is unlikely to be activley training and will rely on other methods, weapons, guile etc. They will not want to get into a 'fight' and any violence will not be for status gain, so therefore not 'training'.

Personally I believe in people, not systems and do not believe that having an 'underground' style will make that much difference.

I also believe that we are talking about the arse end of self defence, the physical and any system that is saying it teaches self defence should be eaching the soft stuff as well, maybe scematics about the title?

In my experience, I tend to believe in this ^^ and what Dave Turton has to say.

Good discussion though, from all sides

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Re: Is it best that Self Defense training stays 'underground'?

Post  Dave on Thu May 16, 2013 4:58 am

Ace Ventura wrote:There seems to be some confusion in this thread about 'bad guys'.

If the bad guys are looking for fights on a friday night up the pub then they may be training kickboxing or MMA or something but the fights they will get into will probably be with the same sort of demographic. Others may get involved but is usually social violence and therefore avoidable by keeping the ego in check. These guys may be training.

The other type of bad guy, the mugger or rapist, the predatory violence criminal, I would say is unlikely to be activley training and will rely on other methods, weapons, guile etc. They will not want to get into a 'fight' and any violence will not be for status gain, so therefore not 'training'.

Personally I believe in people, not systems and do not believe that having an 'underground' style will make that much difference.

I also believe that we are talking about the arse end of self defence, the physical and any system that is saying it teaches self defence should be eaching the soft stuff as well, maybe scematics about the title?

You cant treat all criminals separately because when you are faced with a situation it doesn't matter if they want to smash you up, rape you, mug you don't have a choice all you can do is use self defense in what ever form it takes be it verbal or physical or both.

With regards to the trained MMA guys, Boxers, Steroid users etc they do not look for trouble amongst their own type. On the contrary they are usually in company with socialize with or have some kind of mutual respect for the same like of individual. We've all seen it on a Friday or Saturday night in the town centres the big trained lads walking round with their mates, usually wearing the tight fit tee shirts all showing respect to lads who look like mirror images of themselves and then going to the bouncers and shaking hands showing respect, possibly because they train in the same gyms.

The majority of times that these lads fight its against a group of normal looking lads or a one on one with a normal looking lad. Very seldom have I seen two big lads of the same type having a fight. Usually because there is a bigger chance of losing against someone of a similar skill set, and most street fights are about ego and reputation building so its easier to go for the normal looking lad.

As believing that having an 'underground' style (Oooh doesn't it sound like fight club when I say 'Underground' style Very Happy ) not making much difference. I very strongly disagree, as I pointed out before the word 'underground' can and probably be replaced with the word unknown. Style is just another word for a set of tactics and techniques. To me if someone has a good idea what response I will give when faced with a situation, then they can easily plan an action for my response (I am talking about the early part of a situation here not so much the physical). If this is the case then I am at a distinct disadvantage. However if the individual has no idea what I will do he cant plan for every response and that increases my chance of success greatly. This is something that people do in all walks of life and plan contingencies for. Why do you think that so many teams and sports people spend hours watching clips of their opponents and find how they react to situations and weaknesses in their 'style'.
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Re: Is it best that Self Defense training stays 'underground'?

Post  Ace Ventura on Thu May 16, 2013 6:10 am

Dave wrote:You cant treat all criminals separately because when you are faced with a situation it doesn't matter if they want to smash you up, rape you, mug you don't have a choice all you can do is use self defense in what ever form it takes be it verbal or physical or both.

Maybe I did not explain myself clearly, sorry.

I am not saying you need to treat all criminals differently. But you do need to see that there are different types of violence. If it is social they are looking for reputation and therefore an audience is key as no audience=no kudos. That is unless it is a group bonding in which case the audience is that group. I'd refer you to Rory millers work for longer better explanations. These are the ones that will be looking to pick fights as you say below. So it is within the same social context - mostly young male on young male to estalish dominance in the pack (not same gym users etc).

If it is a predatory criminal then they will pick on the person who will give them what they want the easiest so they will choose female, old etc and in this case an audience= witnesses so they do not want them, the opposite of the above.

For self protection knowing what your attacker is of the two above makes a difference, especially pre violence.

With regards to the trained MMA guys, Boxers, Steroid users etc they do not look for trouble amongst their own type. On the contrary they are usually in company with socialize with or have some kind of mutual respect for the same like of individual. We've all seen it on a Friday or Saturday night in the town centres the big trained lads walking round with their mates, usually wearing the tight fit tee shirts all showing respect to lads who look like mirror images of themselves and then going to the bouncers and shaking hands showing respect, possibly because they train in the same gyms.

In my experience I rarely see trained lads walking round picking fights, maybe we just have less problem here (and I don't go out much now being an old man Very Happy )

The majority of times that these lads fight its against a group of normal looking lads or a one on one with a normal looking lad. Very seldom have I seen two big lads of the same type having a fight. Usually because there is a bigger chance of losing against someone of a similar skill set, and most street fights are about ego and reputation building so its easier to go for the normal looking lad.

This is where I didn't explain myself. I agree. But it is the same demographic ususally, young males (and probably with alcohol or other mind altering substance involved). This also seems to be appearing among young females more now though, a sad fact of 'equality'.

As believing that having an 'underground' style (Oooh doesn't it sound like fight club when I say 'Underground' style Very Happy ) not making much difference. I very strongly disagree, as I pointed out before the word 'underground' can and probably be replaced with the word unknown. Style is just another word for a set of tactics and techniques. To me if someone has a good idea what response I will give when faced with a situation, then they can easily plan an action for my response (I am talking about the early part of a situation here not so much the physical). If this is the case then I am at a distinct disadvantage. However if the individual has no idea what I will do he cant plan for every response and that increases my chance of success greatly. This is something that people do in all walks of life and plan contingencies for. Why do you think that so many teams and sports people spend hours watching clips of their opponents and find how they react to situations and weaknesses in their 'style'.

Here I disagree. How can attacker know what I am going to do unless he knows me personally? And even if he knows what 'style' I do, this is not sports, there are no rules? It sounds like you are saying he will have to have some working knowledge of a system to be able to plan for it, if so, how many systems will these guys study? In my town (not huge) I can name 3 styles of karate, aikido, judo (both BJA and BJC), 2 styles of ju-jitsu, muay thai, kickboxing, capoeria, I think we have MMA now, 2 types of kung fu, 3 lots of tae kwon-do, two boxing gyms, panantukan and a partridge in a pear tree!

So even if you know which ones of those I do, how will it help?

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Re: Is it best that Self Defense training stays 'underground'?

Post  Dave on Thu May 16, 2013 10:53 am

Ace Ventura wrote: How can attacker know what I am going to do unless he knows me personally? And even if he knows what 'style' I do, this is not sports, there are no rules? It sounds like you are saying he will have to have some working knowledge of a system to be able to plan for it, if so, how many systems will these guys study? In my town (not huge) I can name 3 styles of karate, aikido, judo (both BJA and BJC), 2 styles of ju-jitsu, muay thai, kickboxing, capoeria, I think we have MMA now, 2 types of kung fu, 3 lots of tae kwon-do, two boxing gyms, panantukan and a partridge in a pear tree!

So even if you know which ones of those I do, how will it help?

For all the different physical styles of self defense that are out there the constant elements seemed to be Awareness, Avoidance, Disuasion etc. All good self defense seems to start with some form of these aspects. What my friend was saying was that if Self Defense became common knowledge to people then the attackers would have an understanding of what tactics we would use and out of necessity they would learn or plan to counter this. Just as they do with things such as fingerprints CCTV etc.
Even when situations get to the physical stage (and most people agree that a pre-emptive strike is a good self defense technique) they would be aware that this would be a possibility that they would have to deal with and again plan around it.

In short to be at their most effective Self Defense techniques and tactics work best when the person that they are used against has as little knowledge about the tactics and techniques as possible. The same can be said of the attackers tactics and techniques, but then again we all spend time learning about pre attack rituals because it makes it easier for us to prepare and alter our stuff to deal with it.
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Re: Is it best that Self Defense training stays 'underground'?

Post  David Turton on Thu May 16, 2013 1:26 pm

This is now getting a tad OTT

Look there have always been violent 'criminals'
Joe Public has always had to deal with these people, but because the 'odd's are in the favour of NOT getting attacked, then 95% of the population dont prepare or anticipate being attacked

so some prepare and train.. its doesnt really matter an iota what the criminals know or dont know
99% of people attacked will experience SHOCK, a few will be able to deal with it, most wont or cant.. so they become victims

just as good cooking starts with good shopping, so good self-defence starts with awareness and preparation

all driver have to learn and demonstrate the 'emergency stop... we HOPE we never have to use it for real, most of us never will... a small percentage will have to.. for some it saves their lives, for others it doesnt

whether SD methods are or even ever HAVE been 'underground' (which I doubt very much) is not the issue... the attackers, muggers etc are the issue...
most wont use anything other than a loud voice, basic violence and SHOCK

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Re: Is it best that Self Defense training stays 'underground'?

Post  Dave on Fri May 17, 2013 4:59 am

David Turton wrote:This is now getting a tad OTT

Look there have always been violent 'criminals'
Joe Public has always had to deal with these people, but because the 'odd's are in the favour of NOT getting attacked, then 95% of the population dont prepare or anticipate being attacked

so some prepare and train.. its doesnt really matter an iota what the criminals know or dont know
99% of people attacked will experience SHOCK, a few will be able to deal with it, most wont or cant.. so they become victims

just as good cooking starts with good shopping, so good self-defence starts with awareness and preparation

all driver have to learn and demonstrate the 'emergency stop... we HOPE we never have to use it for real, most of us never will... a small percentage will have to.. for some it saves their lives, for others it doesnt

whether SD methods are or even ever HAVE been 'underground' (which I doubt very much) is not the issue... the attackers, muggers etc are the issue...
most wont use anything other than a loud voice, basic violence and SHOCK

We will just have to agree to disagree on certain aspects of this subject Smile
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Re: Is it best that Self Defense training stays 'underground'?

Post  Feckless Combatant on Wed May 22, 2013 4:36 pm

It's a nice coincidence that I've returned now...I was the guy in the OP!

Dave, it was the other way around...the bouncer put up the fence and I jokingly said to put down the fence as I wasn't looking for trouble, his face was a picture!

It seems like every kid out there is calling himself a "cage fighter", some have only watched MMA on TV, some have gone to a couple of club sessions, a small minority are skilled and good at it.

I kind of agree with Dave T in that real yobs nearly always degenerate into mad swinging if they get into it...the vicious ones use cunning and pre-empts to get their scalp for the night. Not much has changed there for centuries!

However - the rise of MMA does make me a tad more careful and mindful of grappling attacks - single and double leg shoots, that sort of thing. Also if they've done a good amount of hard sparring or even competing they're gonna be "battle hardened" to a certain extent so are harder to put out of the game.

What it all boils down to for me anyway, is to never let that guard drop, to be more vigilant than ever, and to avoid getting into it as far as is humanly possible.

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Re: Is it best that Self Defense training stays 'underground'?

Post  Dave on Mon May 27, 2013 8:22 am

Feckless Combatant wrote:It's a nice coincidence that I've returned now...I was the guy in the OP!

Dave, it was the other way around...the bouncer put up the fence and I jokingly said to put down the fence as I wasn't looking for trouble, his face was a picture!

It seems like every kid out there is calling himself a "cage fighter", some have only watched MMA on TV, some have gone to a couple of club sessions, a small minority are skilled and good at it.

I kind of agree with Dave T in that real yobs nearly always degenerate into mad swinging if they get into it...the vicious ones use cunning and pre-empts to get their scalp for the night. Not much has changed there for centuries!

However - the rise of MMA does make me a tad more careful and mindful of grappling attacks - single and double leg shoots, that sort of thing. Also if they've done a good amount of hard sparring or even competing they're gonna be "battle hardened" to a certain extent so are harder to put out of the game.

What it all boils down to for me anyway, is to never let that guard drop, to be more vigilant than ever, and to avoid getting into it as far as is humanly possible.

Feckless,
If you are from Worcester and have 2 children aged 7 and 11 then you are certainly not the guy in the original post that I was referring to. Infact I'm pretty sure that we have never met. scratch
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Re: Is it best that Self Defense training stays 'underground'?

Post  Wayne Harrison on Wed May 29, 2013 3:28 am

Just briefly following the great points here.

A criminal can often pick out fellow criminals, cops, and squaddies (over here in N. Ireland, it is endemic that skill). I just remarked to my wife the other day about the many daily tell-tale signs i see when i am walking outside and toward other men/youths. It's became much more common to see them reach (usually their right hand) into their pocket, with the fist slightly cupped, at times fumbling for something. A tell-tale sign they have noticed me, and are readying their weapon. Just incase.

As well as a sign of getting the weapon ready, it is also a sign that the person may be inexperienced, or at least hold some apprehension with using the blade. Until it is out. Once it is out the adrenaline and anger will allow the knife user to forget bout that often. A confident knife criminal wouldn't be as quick to give such tell tale signs away.

This tell-tale sign wasn't happening as much in England. And believe it or not, the criminals in England have always been more forward, or brazen, than in N. Ireland. And i generally view Ireland as being about ten years behind England in most things anyhow.

I've noticed that a lot of these guys over here in N.I. look to be eastern european.

Criminality does change over decades. And that is in response to law enforcement. though a difference should be made between a citizen who becomes a criminal and a career criminal. the former will default to the standard way more likely than a career criminal who is more in the know about what he may be coming up against. Armed Robberies were far more prevalent decades ago than now for example. Changing how workers were paid, and how cash was moved made criminals adapt. For example, when cash transit vans used to solely carry the cash in bags, easy peasy. Then along comes cash box's. Then the red dye's in cash boxes. So the criminal had to adapt to stop the red dye spreading (i wont publicly say how this is done).

In regard to physical violence, prisons have often some of the best equipped gym's in the country. And with being locked in ones cell an alternative, sports are also a big hit. Living among other dangerous humans can help foster the predatory/aggressive mindset more, and with such a true thing as prisons being criminal universities, the criminal invariably comes out a much better criminal. Not to forget that the prisoner will eat proper meals, sleep proper, etc. Become much more healthy. In fact, if we take into account mindset being most important, they are effectively living almost like a warrior in training.

The potential for criminals to adapt physical violence is there of course. I am not sure it has occurred across the board yet. Except perhaps the propensity to use weapons has increased. Propensity, not necessarily actuality. It is true criminals can be of below average intelligence, yet this really does not make them ineffective or bad at what they do. Many criminals are above average intelligence, and are inside only because of good cop work. Or, believe it or not, they just do not give one shit about the law, so much so that they don't recognize it.

I do believe that the more the general public do something to keep themselves safe, that criminals will do something to combat that thing. This can take time to filter through however, and does have limited effect. However, what shouldn't b discounted is that criminals, as humans, are also susceptible to social conditioning as anyone else. As far as trends are concerned.

However, like all things in sociology it is complicated, and crosses many things. Drugs and the confidence that aggression, and living outside of rules can bring, also make the criminal believe in themselves and their ability. Rightly or wrongly. This may not make lots feel the need to supplement their physical skills.

warmest wishes

Wayne
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Re: Is it best that Self Defense training stays 'underground'?

Post  Feckless Combatant on Thu May 30, 2013 4:45 pm

Dave wrote:
Feckless Combatant wrote:It's a nice coincidence that I've returned now...I was the guy in the OP!

Dave, it was the other way around...the bouncer put up the fence and I jokingly said to put down the fence as I wasn't looking for trouble, his face was a picture!

It seems like every kid out there is calling himself a "cage fighter", some have only watched MMA on TV, some have gone to a couple of club sessions, a small minority are skilled and good at it.

I kind of agree with Dave T in that real yobs nearly always degenerate into mad swinging if they get into it...the vicious ones use cunning and pre-empts to get their scalp for the night. Not much has changed there for centuries!

However - the rise of MMA does make me a tad more careful and mindful of grappling attacks - single and double leg shoots, that sort of thing. Also if they've done a good amount of hard sparring or even competing they're gonna be "battle hardened" to a certain extent so are harder to put out of the game.

What it all boils down to for me anyway, is to never let that guard drop, to be more vigilant than ever, and to avoid getting into it as far as is humanly possible.

Feckless,
If you are from Worcester and have 2 children aged 7 and 11 then you are certainly not the guy in the original post that I was referring to. Infact I'm pretty sure that we have never met. scratch

Second from last paragraph in your OP mate...unless it's just coincidence...I posted about such an incident on this very forum about two years ago, went exactly as said.

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