Back to capoeira it seems

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Back to capoeira it seems

Post  Jagunco on Sun Mar 17, 2013 1:23 pm

It appears that there have been changes in the rota at my old capoeira classes. The Brazillian bloke who ran them for years has finally decided that he has a firm enough foundation in the UK to go back to Brazil.

Because of differences between us I was always uncomfortabe attending his classes and when my last instructor left for portugal to live I was left on a bit of a loose end and can honestly say I've not felt right since.

I do now feel at liberty to attend classes again and its going to be odd to say the least. I haven't trained in capoeira in four years now and I'm heavier and less fit and lets face it older that I as lol.

Anyway just thought I'd mention it, it has to be said that I've tried a plethora of martial arts over the years but I've never been as happy as when I've been doing the Capoeira
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Re: Back to capoeira it seems

Post  combatnige on Mon Mar 18, 2013 7:47 am

you may find that you get fitter as you attend more and more classes, plus if you get the bug back again there is no reason why you wont practice at home, I used to do that all the time during my karate days

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Re: Back to capoeira it seems

Post  Jagunco on Wed Mar 20, 2013 4:49 am

Jut so you now it went back and it was fine.. I struggled with my fitness but managed everything else fairly well
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Re: Back to capoeira it seems

Post  combatnige on Wed Mar 20, 2013 7:21 am

how are you feeling the day after, any aches n pains that never used to be there ??

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Re: Back to capoeira it seems

Post  Jagunco on Wed Mar 20, 2013 10:25 am

Well used to aches and pains to be honest mate, my dodgy hip is complaining a lot but that was to be expected
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Re: Back to capoeira it seems

Post  Mr Nobody on Wed Mar 20, 2013 11:12 pm

Good on you for getting back into it mate. You'll probably renew a passion for it.

I'm currently deciding whether it's worth continuing with Hapkido after 8 years in that style...I really want to focus primarily on efficient and effective techniques that are easily applied in my job yet there are too many "useless" things we do that, in my opinion, we waste time on.

Just having a rant.
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Re: Back to capoeira it seems

Post  combatnige on Thu Mar 21, 2013 5:57 am

have you ever tested what works and what doesnt, I dont mean in a life threatening situation, maybe with a training partner that who won't give you the same feed as you get in a dojo, and maybe tries to resist a little, just so you can see the effect and how immediate it is.

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Re: Back to capoeira it seems

Post  Jagunco on Thu Mar 21, 2013 10:55 am

I must admit for all I know of effective styles and ones less so I love my capoeira and its about the most inefficient style on the planet.

Hapkido I never tried I have to admit, which is saying something
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Re: Back to capoeira it seems

Post  Mr Nobody on Fri Mar 22, 2013 2:04 am

combatnige wrote:have you ever tested what works and what doesnt, I dont mean in a life threatening situation, maybe with a training partner that who won't give you the same feed as you get in a dojo, and maybe tries to resist a little, just so you can see the effect and how immediate it is.

Yep, I have. I work as a cop so have tried quite a few things on the job and while some have been very useful, a lot of the stuff I wouldn't even bother with because it just straight up wouldn't work. I have trained in Muay Thai since I was 16 and I can tell you Hapkido has been way more helpful to me as a cop than Muay Thai has been! I guess I just now want to get really really good at the good, effective stuff and just have a working knowledge of the rest.

I have also used the shredder a couple of times, with fantastic results, and have used the fence on numerous occasions which has also been very helpful and useful. The Hapkido club is small but I do have a couple of people I can test techniques with and honestly feel that most of the stuff won't work most of the time. I'm more interested in the small amount of stuff that will work most of the time. In saying that though, I fully understand that I had to wade through the repetitive drills etc in order to fully grasp how to apply Hapkido and totally appreciate that you need to understand the style before pulling it to pieces. I'm not sure I've reached that stage yet but I'm possibly not far away.

This is what I have learnt through policing:

I can tell you that good explosive palm strike to the chin combined with a driving push is a great takedown when done non-telegraphically. All offenders that I've come across hate being in the kimura hold and they all seem to lose their fight when you put a hard choke/strangle hold on them. But these are physical techniques and communication is still the best tool.

Like I said earlier, I'm just having a rant!

Jagunco:

Hapkido is much like Japanese Jujutsu. A bit of everything with an emphasis more on pain compliance tecnhniques and locking restraint holds.

I understand that capoeira might not be effective self defence but if that was your main focus for training then you would be in another style. You do it because you enjoy it I assume?
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Re: Back to capoeira it seems

Post  GOVINDA on Fri Mar 22, 2013 6:32 am

Mr Nobody wrote:
combatnige wrote:have you ever tested what works and what doesnt, I dont mean in a life threatening situation, maybe with a training partner that who won't give you the same feed as you get in a dojo, and maybe tries to resist a little, just so you can see the effect and how immediate it is.

Yep, I have. I work as a cop so have tried quite a few things on the job and while some have been very useful, a lot of the stuff I wouldn't even bother with because it just straight up wouldn't work. I have trained in Muay Thai since I was 16 and I can tell you Hapkido has been way more helpful to me as a cop than Muay Thai has been! I guess I just now want to get really really good at the good, effective stuff and just have a working knowledge of the rest.

I have also used the shredder a couple of times, with fantastic results, and have used the fence on numerous occasions which has also been very helpful and useful. The Hapkido club is small but I do have a couple of people I can test techniques with and honestly feel that most of the stuff won't work most of the time. I'm more interested in the small amount of stuff that will work most of the time. In saying that though, I fully understand that I had to wade through the repetitive drills etc in order to fully grasp how to apply Hapkido and totally appreciate that you need to understand the style before pulling it to pieces. I'm not sure I've reached that stage yet but I'm possibly not far away.

This is what I have learnt through policing:

I can tell you that good explosive palm strike to the chin combined with a driving push is a great takedown when done non-telegraphically. All offenders that I've come across hate being in the kimura hold and they all seem to lose their fight when you put a hard choke/strangle hold on them. But these are physical techniques and communication is still the best tool.

Like I said earlier, I'm just having a rant!

Jagunco:

Hapkido is much like Japanese Jujutsu. A bit of everything with an emphasis more on pain compliance tecnhniques and locking restraint holds.

I understand that capoeira might not be effective self defence but if that was your main focus for training then you would be in another style. You do it because you enjoy it I assume?


Good post Mr Nobody, I'd love to hear more on what has and hasn't worked for you !

Gov.
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Re: Back to capoeira it seems

Post  Jagunco on Sat Mar 23, 2013 4:01 am

it is odd what works and what doesn't isn't it...

Thought it has to be said that if I see another wrist lock in self defense I might cry, I wonder why they're so popular...
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Re: Back to capoeira it seems

Post  Mr Nobody on Sat Mar 23, 2013 4:52 pm

Wrist locks have their place when used for pain compliance. But that's fine for Police, in some circumstances, because we have to restrain people in order to arrest and take into custody.

For your average person needing self defence training, I would argue they are pointless and unnecessary because the objective is to survive the attack and/or escape.
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Re: Back to capoeira it seems

Post  David Turton on Sun Mar 24, 2013 1:58 am

not totally useless .. if you apply the techniques in the ways we do in our system, then they have a validity albeit minor

its rarely the actual technique that has problems,.. its usually the application

to use another technique base as an example ..

we have world, european, and national kickboxing champions in my association.. and take a kick like the roundhouse kick

points fighters apply it one way, continuous another and K1/Thai style another.. they are all roundhouse kicks but with different applications

the same with 'locks' and 'levers' .. the application and end goal are the keys here

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Re: Back to capoeira it seems

Post  Jagunco on Sun Mar 24, 2013 3:49 am

Mr Nobody wrote:Wrist locks have their place when used for pain compliance. But that's fine for Police, in some circumstances, because we have to restrain people in order to arrest and take into custody.

For your average person needing self defence training, I would argue they are pointless and unnecessary because the objective is to survive the attack and/or escape.

Precicely my thoughts: wrist locks to me are pain compliance or restraint and arrest techniques, useful if propperly applied but I wouldn't put them under the 'self defence' lable.

When you think about it they don't actually take you out of harms way cos you have to hold onto to bugger lol!
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Re: Back to capoeira it seems

Post  Mr Nobody on Sun Mar 24, 2013 2:48 pm

David Turton wrote:not totally useless .. if you apply the techniques in the ways we do in our system, then they have a validity albeit minor

its rarely the actual technique that has problems,.. its usually the application

to use another technique base as an example ..

we have world, european, and national kickboxing champions in my association.. and take a kick like the roundhouse kick

points fighters apply it one way, continuous another and K1/Thai style another.. they are all roundhouse kicks but with different applications

the same with 'locks' and 'levers' .. the application and end goal are the keys here

I agree Dave, but as you said "...albeit minor" and the "...end goal are the keys here."

Personally, I am a percentages person in that I believe in training for: how am I most likely going to be attacked, how am I most likely going to have to restrain that person or how am I most likely going to have to take that person down?

Obviously, this means that you run the risk of falling foul of the situation you didn't train for but if you train in a holistic manner with techniques and concepts that allow you to deal with a large variety of scenarios then. I believe, that generally you will do ok. This is where wrist locks become largely unnecessary for civilians because the need for them to use them in a self defence situation is unlikely.

I'm not vigourously opposed to wrist locks at all, I just believe they have limited application for self defence.
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Re: Back to capoeira it seems

Post  David Turton on Tue Mar 26, 2013 1:30 am

its worth realising that what we term as Wrist Locks, Arm Locks and Levers and so on, were NOT originally designed for the purposes they have evolved into

going BACK to the origins of many techniques, then the 'end product' and 'practical applications' I mentioned become clearer

the same (and sorry to go on a minor tangent), but some throws etc are NOT being applied in their originally designed applications..

O-Soto-gari for example or rear sweep/outer reaping throw to give it a few of its titles was originally a KICK, that has morphed into a throw

many wrist locks arm locks and levers as well are designed as BREAKS, and applied swiftly and over a short range....

dont denigrate these technigues until you have learned and applied them as they were originally designed

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Re: Back to capoeira it seems

Post  Nick Hughes on Tue Mar 26, 2013 7:59 pm

What Dave said. Why on earth would anyone back in the day apply two of their arms to tie up one of their opponents in the middle of life and death combat. All locks were originally breaks of the respective joints. That makes perfect sense as in the case of a wrist break or elbow break the opponent can't hold a weapon effectively.

Undoubtedly they were applied in training to a point where they caused sufficient pain to teach both sides that the technique, should it be continued, would destroy the joint. From there, as Dave said, the morphed into compliance techniques that have a limited role in security/policing etc and low level conflict.

The same is true of throws by the way. Ippon seonage was never done with the elbow bent but instead inverted so the person being thrown had their arm broken or they were launched. Kano modifed all the techniques to make it safe for practitioners.

The standard hip throw for example is a back break. As you roll him over your right hip you drop onto your left knee and plant your right foot...his back will descend at speed across your right thigh/knee and break.

The list goes on...

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Re: Back to capoeira it seems

Post  Mr Nobody on Tue Mar 26, 2013 8:12 pm

I agree with everything said by Dave and Nick.

But I'm talking about my personal situation. I need to be able to justify my use of force in a situation that requires force to be used. It is very rare that I need to break the bones of an offender and if I did I would need to justify it.

I'm well aware of the consequences of when you push a locking technique to the extreme and what they were intended for. My argument is more along the lines that for modern day civilian self defence, it is unlikely that you will need to use them.

I'm not denigrating them by a long shot. I like training in locking techniques and have used them very successfully in real situations.
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Re: Back to capoeira it seems

Post  Jagunco on Wed Mar 27, 2013 10:13 am

Yes indeed its all true about writsts locks and breaks that they have a place and a use and they work but...

If I was suddenly in charge of a self defence class of normal people who wanted only to walked the streets safer... after I cover the 98% of awareness and avoidance I wouldn't start teadhing people locks and controls and bone breaks.

If the police called me in for some bizzar reason to teach Self defence I would probably throw some controling techniques in (assuming I knew any of course) or if some door staff wanted to better eject people then restraint is the way foward but not for a genreal self defence course, which I think some intrcutors went through a fad of teaching such techniques.
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Re: Back to capoeira it seems

Post  Mr Nobody on Wed Mar 27, 2013 3:29 pm

We seem to have strayed off topic a bit Jagunco!
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Re: Back to capoeira it seems

Post  Jagunco on Thu Mar 28, 2013 8:15 am

Oh yeah... I went it was fun.... lol!
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Re: Back to capoeira it seems

Post  Dave on Thu Mar 28, 2013 11:07 am

Mr Nobody a quick question if you will. I appreciate the usefullness of wrist locks and chokes etc when dealing with offenders. Can I ask if these are techniques that you are able to use are only once you get hands on with a person, who is initially compliant and then for one reason or another becomes violent, tries to escape etc?

Also if that is the case what are your prefered techniques when you attend an incident where the offender is already itching for a fight just upon your presence, and makes it clear that he / she is about to 'smash your face in' or simply just attacks you?
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Re: Back to capoeira it seems

Post  Mr Nobody on Fri Mar 29, 2013 2:47 pm

Dave wrote:Mr Nobody a quick question if you will. I appreciate the usefullness of wrist locks and chokes etc when dealing with offenders. Can I ask if these are techniques that you are able to use are only once you get hands on with a person, who is initially compliant and then for one reason or another becomes violent, tries to escape etc?

Also if that is the case what are your prefered techniques when you attend an incident where the offender is already itching for a fight just upon your presence, and makes it clear that he / she is about to 'smash your face in' or simply just attacks you?

In answer to your first question: Yes. I normally use them if the person is actively or passively resistant. By active I mean pushing or pulling to get away or prevent being restrained and passive resistance is when someone "goes limp" for example. They seem to work pretty good, depending on the circumstances, in those situations. Chokes more so on an actively resisting person because it takes the fight out of a person when they can't breathe even a little bit.

In response to your second question: If the environment allows it, pepper spray or taser/baton/overwhelming numbers if the offender clearly wants to fight. Remember, it is our job to win and I will find a way that is as unfair to the offender as possible and which will give me the greatest advantage. If the environment does not allow it then I have used the shredder a couple of times and found it to be very effective.
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Re: Back to capoeira it seems

Post  Dave on Fri Mar 29, 2013 2:58 pm

Thanks for the reply. Yours is one of those jobs where one the first rules of self defence does not really apply, by that I mean AVOIDANCE, no one who is a police officer has that choice. As you cant avoid certain situations its nice to know that you have the pepper spray, Taser, Baton and hopefully a load of colleagues on route to assist.

When you have had to use physical self defence techniques outside the job what have you found most effective?
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Re: Back to capoeira it seems

Post  Mr Nobody on Fri Mar 29, 2013 6:50 pm

Communication Dave. Awareness and avoidence...as you mentioned. I honestly haven't had to physically defend myself outside of the job as of yet!

I'm a pretty relaxed sort of guy and like to think my ego is kept reasonably under control. Plus I'm a big advocate for non-violent resolutions if possible but I guess I would probably use the shredder still for close quarters and my other tools for the other ranges....including my legs for running! Smile
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