push ups and bench press (bar or dumb)

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push ups and bench press (bar or dumb)

Post  Jagunco on Sat Jan 12, 2013 12:43 am

Hullo

I was lying in bed pondering the differences between these two in my head so I though I'd come on here and ask a few opinions.

I mean I know its easy enough to both I'm not saying ones better than another but I thought it would be some good info.

Also what stuff do you do to mix up those exercises. At my Thai class the instructor likes doing presses while resting on a pilates ball and using dumbells
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Re: push ups and bench press (bar or dumb)

Post  Ade on Sat Jan 12, 2013 3:59 am

Push ups involve a lot more musculature than bench press,and are a lot kinder to your shoulders.
I you find you can do high amounts easily put a 25kg bag of building sand in a rucksack and give it a go.

You also don't need a spotter!
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Re: push ups and bench press (bar or dumb)

Post  Wayne Harrison on Sat Jan 12, 2013 6:13 am

If it's combat specific exercise it's push-ups for me. No bench press at all. Benching is an unnatural movement in ways, though it might not seem so outwardly. Isolating a muscle isn't what happens in combat, well street combat at least. There's better ways to have cross-transferable activity.

With the press-up much more of the body is used, together, with no support behind. Much like is done in stand-up combat. Press-ups require balance, co-ordination, and will even exercise stomach, core, legs, to a degree. It's a king of exercises. The way the press-up is done is key also.

This is what i like anyhow.

warmest wishes

Wayne
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Re: push ups and bench press (bar or dumb)

Post  Ade on Sat Jan 12, 2013 2:08 pm

just to add...

It took me about 25 years to work out the bench pressing is really not very "functional" at all and any gains don't readily transfer into real world applications.
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Re: push ups and bench press (bar or dumb)

Post  mickeybluejeans on Sat Jan 12, 2013 3:26 pm

I don't understand the concept of 'not being functional' i bench press, do pull ups, preacher curls all things that are not considered to be 'functional'

funny thing is I'm a big strong bastard (and very humble!!) who can lift heavy pieces of furniture and carry suitcases the full length of airport terminals.

I believe within reason big muscles make the human frame more functional no matter what exercises you used to build them.

bench press will build a stroinger chest than press ups no matter how you sex them up.

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Re: push ups and bench press (bar or dumb)

Post  Ade on Sun Jan 13, 2013 7:30 am

Yep,you're right Mickey...and at the end of the day if you're strong,you're strong Wink

I had a wake up call some years back when i started submission wrestling regularly. I just couldn't figure out why,despite being able to bench over 300lbs,i could not push a 13 stone fella off me.
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Re: push ups and bench press (bar or dumb)

Post  mickeybluejeans on Sun Jan 13, 2013 10:22 am

but did being able to bench press 300lbs put you at a disadvantage? I bet although you couldn't do it, if you could only bench press 150bls you still wouldn't have been able to do it.., but you would have been able to do it less ( if that makes sense)

you can't take one specific incident and use it as proof something doesn't help. in that case it did not help but I bet there are other example that could be quoted where it does help and overall it will help more than it hinders

you could put most things into 3 categories,

it helps..... it hinders..... it makes no difference.

the only example I can think of where it hinders was a programme I watched about wing chun and the old instructor chastised a pupil for having big, developed biceps, he said they would slow down his straight punching ( chain) don't know how true it was.


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Re: push ups and bench press (bar or dumb)

Post  Jagunco on Sun Jan 13, 2013 11:50 am

I must admit I agree that press ups are better for a miriad of reasons. Does anyone find though that having more control of the amount of weight you're pushing helps?

I mena there are ways to make pres ups easier or harder.. one handed or putting your knees on the deck but fur just to ba able to say 'I need to life Xkg today' a bar or set of dumbells are king...
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Re: push ups and bench press (bar or dumb)

Post  Ade on Sun Jan 13, 2013 12:44 pm

mickeybluejeans wrote:but did being able to bench press 300lbs put you at a disadvantage? I bet although you couldn't do it, if you could only bench press 150bls you still wouldn't have been able to do it.., but you would have been able to do it less ( if that makes sense)

you can't take one specific incident and use it as proof something doesn't help. in that case it did not help but I bet there are other example that could be quoted where it does help and overall it will help more than it hinders

you could put most things into 3 categories,

it helps..... it hinders..... it makes no difference.

the only example I can think of where it hinders was a programme I watched about wing chun and the old instructor chastised a pupil for having big, developed biceps, he said they would slow down his straight punching ( chain) don't know how true it was.


Darn it,now you've got me reconsidering my position! Suspect

Virtually all of the strength i cite as being functional today (for me) has been built on a foundation of years of heavy "gym" exercises .

Cool,i'm happy to be (probably) wrong in this case.Time for a rethink


*Edit*Oddly i've reconsidered my position on quite few matters since the year began...maybe i'm becoming less stubborn Very Happy
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Re: push ups and bench press (bar or dumb)

Post  Mr Nobody on Mon Jan 14, 2013 12:15 am

The "guard attack" exercise using kettlebells or dumbells is possibly the most "functional" bench press type exercise for combat as you use most of the body to press the weight above you. An example of this technique at the following link:

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=yP2kFHor6a8

That's not too bad, but I prefer Mike Mahlers method better as he uses more of his body and I've had great results using his programs. Example as follows:

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Yp30IROD6h8

Lifting heavy is more than just strength. It is a skill unto itself as well. Having good biomechanics, lifting efficiently, using correct leverage and being strong all play a role in lifting heavy weights or lifting heavy anything really.

My personal opinion is that a true foundation of developing all round strength for anything is being able to perform heavy compound exerises on a regular basis eg, squats, deadlifts, standing military press etc because you learn to use your body as a co-ordinated strength unit and over a wide range of movement.
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Re: push ups and bench press (bar or dumb)

Post  GOVINDA on Mon Jan 14, 2013 3:34 am

If you want big pecs then incline DB is the best, a classic 5x5 seems to be all the rage these days if one is after hypertrophy, if after cardio or combat conditioning then avoid big lifts, as mentioned press-ups etc are the best imo....other factors are body types and diet etc etc...
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Re: push ups and bench press (bar or dumb)

Post  Dave on Mon Jan 14, 2013 8:17 am

I suppose it depends on what your goal is. If its size and strength then bench is great, if its a more functional strength for fighting etc then there are a variety of press up type excercises which probably suit more.

However how you perform the excercise can also affect how the it benefits you, for example, plyometric type excercises. which you see a lot more combat sports athletes doing, can combine both press ups and bench press. A lot of athletes will train in programmes which will incorporate both bench press and press ups.

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Re: push ups and bench press (bar or dumb)

Post  mickeybluejeans on Mon Jan 14, 2013 12:27 pm

just to throw another aspect into the mix, when we talk about conditioning for fighting are we talking about the 20 seconds outside the pub or 12x3mins round in the ring?

my training is really aimed for outside the pub, or to be truthfully honest outside the kebab shop, so much so that I'm now working on my one arm dumbbell press while holding a doner kebab in my free hand Very Happy Very Happy


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Re: push ups and bench press (bar or dumb)

Post  Zak on Mon Jan 14, 2013 4:19 pm



Hi guys,

you may find this article interesting - it includes a good case for push-ups.

That said, I'm not particularly pro-push-up-anti-bench-press, I'm just pro-balance.

Take good care,

Zak

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Re: push ups and bench press (bar or dumb)

Post  Zak on Mon Jan 14, 2013 4:22 pm



I'm also pro-including-the-link .......

http://www.t-nation.com/free_online_article/sports_body_training_performance_repair/pushups_face_pulls_and_shrugs..


geek

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Re: push ups and bench press (bar or dumb)

Post  Mr Nobody on Tue Jan 15, 2013 6:37 pm

I was having a look around some sites and found this one:

http://www.kettlebellscience.com/index.html

If you have the time to read some of the scientific studies, they are quite interesting albeit unrelated to whether bench press is a better exercise to push ups.

I also cut and pasted this from the home page of the above site too...for those who want to know what "functional" strength is all about.

In today’s society, far too many direct their efforts towards training and isolating individual muscles. Isolating a muscle is purely a hypertrophy/bodybuilding approach. "Functional training incorporates the goal of enhancing strength throughout the body segment linkage."

Specifically, functional training involves (McGill, 2009, p. 28-29)

1.Intramuscular coordination of fibers within a muscle
2.Intermuscular coordination between muscle groups
3.Facililatory and inhibitory reflexive pathways
4.Motor Learning


Each to their own though. Smile
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Re: push ups and bench press (bar or dumb)

Post  Socrates on Wed Jan 16, 2013 4:06 am

This has been an interesting discussion so far. IMHO, if you want to develop punching power, you need to be training four things.

(1) Leg strength and explosiveness

I like power cleans, front squats and hill sprints, but there's a lot else you could do (deadlifts, back squats, jumps, trap bar deadlifts, sprint intervals and so on)

(2) Generating force in your legs and transferring it through your torso into your hands

Push presses are great here, particularly if you start off with a power clean. You could also do jerks or power jerks or throw a medicine ball, for example

(3) Horizontal pressing

All kinds of pushups are good here, particularly on your knuckles. You can also do bench presses or floor presses with a bar or a dumbbell or a kettlebell. Make sure you throw in lots of pullups between sets for shoulder health

(4) Technique work on the heavy bag

´Nuff said

If you wanted to put it all together you could do something like this:

(A) Pushups, medicine ball throws and sprint intervals to warm up
Push press (power clean the bar into position)
Front squat (power clean the bar into position)
Pullups between sets of main exercises
Heavy bag drills as finisher

(B) Pushups, medicine ball throws and sprint intervals to warm up
Power cleans
One-handed floor press
Chinups between sets of main exercises
Circuits of heavy bag and farmer's walks

That is a fairly basic program you can do at home with a barbell, a dumbbell or kettlebell or two, a heavy bag and a medicine ball or two. You would maybe need a few classes on how to power clean first. Think lots of sets of low reps (one to three most of the time, sometimes going up to five) on the main exercises.

If you do something like this, you will still have plenty of energy for training martial arts at least a couple of times per week. You can also work on the heavy bag after sparring as well.
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Re: push ups and bench press (bar or dumb)

Post  cartmelpete on Tue Feb 05, 2013 4:58 am

Thanks Mr Nobody for the links to the Mike Mahler site.
Just been looking at it and like the fact that he's big on Military press, push press and one handed press type exersises plus the full body exersises. There's some really good stuff on his site, for free too. I'm adapting his stuff for dumbbells as I haven't got kettlebells

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Re: push ups and bench press (bar or dumb)

Post  Mr Nobody on Fri Feb 08, 2013 10:11 pm

cartmelpete wrote: Thanks Mr Nobody for the links to the Mike Mahler site.
Just been looking at it and like the fact that he's big on Military press, push press and one handed press type exersises plus the full body exersises. There's some really good stuff on his site, for free too. I'm adapting his stuff for dumbbells as I haven't got kettlebells

Good on you Cartmelpete! I'd be interested to hear of your results I like Mahlers material and methods personally. Simple, effective and some of them are brutal!
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Re: push ups and bench press (bar or dumb)

Post  cartmelpete on Sun Feb 10, 2013 5:13 am

Mr Nobody wrote

Good on you Cartmelpete! I'd be interested to hear of your results

Thanks Mr Nobody. I like the fact that Mahler emphasises full body compound movements like the Military Press, Power Clean, One-arm clean and push press etc etc.
I have been doing three days a week with dumbbells at home based on his routines. As I'm cough, cough, ... a mature aged gent I'm not throwing around 32k dumbbells yet but will let you know how I get on. I also like the fact that his routines combine strength and endurance. That plus shadow boxing in between sets or at the end breaks out a sweat.

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Re: push ups and bench press (bar or dumb)

Post  Mr Nobody on Sun Feb 10, 2013 11:41 pm

cartmelpete wrote:Mr Nobody wrote

Good on you Cartmelpete! I'd be interested to hear of your results

Thanks Mr Nobody. I like the fact that Mahler emphasises full body compound movements like the Military Press, Power Clean, One-arm clean and push press etc etc.
I have been doing three days a week with dumbbells at home based on his routines. As I'm cough, cough, ... a mature aged gent I'm not throwing around 32k dumbbells yet but will let you know how I get on. I also like the fact that his routines combine strength and endurance. That plus shadow boxing in between sets or at the end breaks out a sweat.

Compound exercises are the way to go, more bang for your buck as Mahler likes to say.

I think some of his programs suit kettlebells betters than dumbells but in saying that, I still think you will get a great workout regardless and the differences will be minimal.

Good luck!
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