How Positive Thinking Fucked the Martial Arts.

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How Positive Thinking Fucked the Martial Arts.

Post  Chris on Tue Oct 16, 2012 8:09 am

There are physical laws which govern the universe.

These Physical laws are typically conclusions based on repeated scientific experiments and observations over many years and which have become accepted as a result across the scientific community

in Europe this systematic theorizing about nature (physis) began with the early Greek philosophers and scientists and continued into the Hellenistic and Roman imperial periods. It continues through the linege of Newton, Faraday, Einstein, Galileo, Descartes and Higgs Boson.

These laws form the basis of our scientific understanding of the universe and our place within it. They are the truth of our existence. The discoveries of physics find applications throughout the natural sciences, since matter and energy are the basic constituents of the natural world.

As martial artists with an inteterest in force, impact, energy, space, distance and time our success is inherently linked with application under the restraint or understanding of those physical laws.

As human beings we are subject to and not the masters of those physical laws. They are not servants of our will and we hold no measure of control over them. They are immovable objects that we incorporate into our training or we fail.

Now, here is why positive thinking has fucked Martial Arts training.

While an understanding of the physical laws which govern the universe (and to some extent the scientific theories of evolution and human development) can aid and benefit the martial artist in their training and create a basis for which to develop beneficial and developmental training programmes. Positive Thinking takes no account at all of the finality and complex nature of those same physical laws. Positive Thinking for the following reasons has become the single largest enemy of true growth physically, mentally and emotionally that it's corrosive power has destroyed more dreams and hopes than it claimed to bolster.

Dr. Norman Vincent Peale (May 31, 1898 December 24, 1993) was a minister and author (most notably of The Power of Positive Thinking) and a progenitor of the theory of "positive thinking". He is an excellent starting point to understand why "positive thinking" as a dogma has created more negative effect than any positive impact it may have had.

To begin with. The effect of positive thinking is impossible to measure and incredibly difficult to substantiate. Inevitably, success is measured through anecdotes and testimonials rather than evidence and proof. As psychiatrist R. C. Murphy analysed Peale's work and came to the following conclusion "All this advertising is vindicated as it were, by a strict cleaving to the side of part truth," and referred to the work and the quoted material as "implausible and woodenly pious." In short, tell people what they want to hear and they will believe. Certainly not a phenomenon which is unique to martial arts schools and associations but one we can clearly see being utilised in some schools.

Another criticism I have of "positive thinking" theories is the snake oil application of concealed hypnosis. Peale and others have shown themselves to utilise techniques which are a well known form of hypnosis and self hypnosis. He attempts to conceal those techniques and persuade his readers to follow his beliefs through a combination of self-hypnosis and false evidence. Peale openly adopted the character development and control techniques of the Jesuit order of the Catholic church. These were structured to self analysis, character development and growth. Taking no account of the wider universe and the physical laws which we are all bound by. We cannot fly, we have a finite strength, we cannot move beyond finite speeds etc etc etc. Self hypnosis which is based on unrealistic and impossible expectations is a dangerous force. Just ask the Martial Arts Black Belt who considers themselves invulnerable. As that same Black Belt after their first encounter with knives, bats and bricks (if they are still alive!)

Delusion kills. Delusion focuses the mind in unprofitable pursuits. Delusion kills self knowledge and Delusion is prevelant in the autohypnosis techniques of "positive thinking" gurus.

Peale asserted that practicing his techniques will give the reader absolute self-confidence and deliverance from suffering. His critics assert that the techniques are a well known form of hypnosis (autosuggestion), disguised by the use of terms which may sound more benign from the reader's point of view ("techniques", "formulas," "methods," "prayers," and "prescriptions.")

Psychiatrist R.C. Murphy writes "Self knowledge, in Mr. Peale's understanding is unequivocally bad: self hypnosis is good." Murphy adds that repeated hypnosis defeats an individual's self-motivation, self-knowledge, unique sense of self, sense of reality, and ability to think critically. Murphy describes Peale's understanding of the mind as inaccurate, "without depth," and his description of the workings of the mind and the unconscious as deceptively simplistic and false: "It is the very shallowness of his concept of 'person' that makes his rules appear easy ... If the unconscious of man ... can be conceptualized as a container for a small number of psychic fragments, then ideas like 'mind-drainage' follow. So does the reliance on self-hypnosis, which is the cornerstone of Mr. Peale's philosophy.'"

In short, positive thinkers have no interest in the individual having more understanding of themselves and therefore a real basis for true growth and development. Rather, they are obssessed with hypnotising themselves to believe that critical thinking is not required. No physical, mental or emotional limits exist and we are only bound by the barrier of our own psychological "wish list." This kind of delusion can lead to significant mental health problems. The positive thinking approach is dangerous, distorted and unrealistic. "In the long run [Peale's teachings] lead to failure and disillusionment, and not only boomerang back against people, but often prejudice them against effective therapy."

We can see clearly how such a lack of self awareness and self knowledge could be dangerous for a martial artist. WE can also see how Martial Arts training in some areas is so attractive to those who have a desire to be a superhero figure not bound by "normal" limitations.

The final, most major point to be made is that of the exaggerated fears positive thinking encourages in its disciples and followers. Positive thinkers are not allowed to see, hear or speak any evil. This eventually leads to aggression and attempted destruction of those considered "negative".

For positive thinkers real human suffering does not exist; there is no such thing as murderous rage, suicidal despair, cruelty, lust, greed, mass poverty, or illiteracy. All these things are dismissed as trivial mental processes which will evaporate if thoughts are simply turned into more cheerful channels. This attitude is so unpleasant it bears some search for its real meaning. It is clearly not a genuine denial of evil but rather a horror of it. A person turns his eyes away from human bestiality and the suffering it evokes only if he cannot stand to look at it. By doing so he affirms the evil to be absolute, he looks away only when he feels that nothing can be done about it ... The belief in pure evil, an area of experience beyond the possibility of help or redemption, is automatically a summons to action: 'evil' means 'that which must be attacked ... ' with such a belief system that evil cannot be challenged and overcome bit instead must be ignored the "positive thinking" ethos is not only inadequate for our needs but even undertakes to drown out the fragile inner voice which is the spur to inner growth.

The mastery Peale advocates is not the mastery of skills or tasks, but the mastery of fleeing and avoiding one's own "negative thoughts."

What is required for a martial artist is not positive thinking but positive psychology which is tied to a program of empirical and replicable scientific activity. Positiver psychology where accuracy is tied to potentially catastrophic outcomes (for example, when an airline pilot is deciding whether to de-ice the wings of his or her airplane) we should all be pessimists. We should be working from the pessimistic view of "what is the worst that could happen if I fail to be accurate or cognisant of failure" That is "Positive Psychology"

Looking at this phenomenon through the filter of modern society we can see the following effects.

For example, the notion that positive thinking is a requirement for good health. Nonsense, positive thinking may actively make the illness worse or cause delay in seeking out scientific input in the treatment of an illness or condition. Optimism alone cannot cure a medical ailment in the same way that an automotive accident cannot be prevented by positive thought and a violent encounter cannot be prevented by an unwavering belief that all will be well.
In any event, positive thinkers are convinced that if something goes wrong, it's because they didn't work hard enough or pray to the correct deities enough. Not because there are certain irrefutable laws which govern us all.

Promoting the idea that anything you could want, dream or desire is within your grasp is in the interests of every martial arts school who is selling a bill of goods to their students without facing the hard and harsh reality of physical attributes in violent encounters.

All the denial about how violence actually occurs and how it feels distracts martial artists from questioning their training and actively pursuing a more realistic training programme. That inability to critically examine the requirements of a violent encounter and face it fully prevent self analysis and self knowledge. It also prevents the development of a healthy pessimism which suggests that maybe arguing with the snarling psychopath about the last parking space or walking home alone at two in the morning across wastland is not the best of ideas.

As human beings and as Martial Artists we need a grown-up disdain for complacency, compliance and conformity, and we need an internal critical forum where we are free to examine our discontent or limitations realistically. .

Stop lookinf for the Martial Arts Silver Bullet. Start thinking about all the people over the years who've told you to embrace change, or think positively and smile because "it may never happen." Were they right? I doubt it. I bet there were times when "it" did happen, and I bet you didn't like it. Will you be ready the next time "it" does?


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Re: How Positive Thinking Fucked the Martial Arts.

Post  rezbi on Tue Oct 16, 2012 1:27 pm

Gosh.

Now I know why you lawyers take so long doing your jobs. With the time you take writing these articles, it's no wonder. Smile

And to think you charge by the hour. Wink

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Re: How Positive Thinking Fucked the Martial Arts.

Post  David Turton on Wed Oct 17, 2012 1:22 am

Chris you need to start sending articles to MAI and other mags mate ... thats very preceptive mate

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Re: How Positive Thinking Fucked the Martial Arts.

Post  Ace Ventura on Wed Oct 17, 2012 1:57 am

Chris, great article. My only reservation is that I believe that there is nothing wrong with positive thinking but my defenition of positive thinking differs from what seems to have been hijacked by the very crowd you are talking about.

What they do is not positive thinking but blind faith.

It is a bit like the way 'heroic' is banded around now.

But I am arguing semantics, the article is top class.

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Re: How Positive Thinking Fucked the Martial Arts.

Post  rezbi on Wed Oct 17, 2012 2:43 pm

David Turton wrote:Chris you need to start sending articles to MAI and other mags mate ... thats very preceptive mate

You've said this before, Dave, and I agree.

The time Chris is putting into these articles, and the quality, he might as well get paid for them.

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Re: How Positive Thinking Fucked the Martial Arts.

Post  Nick Hughes on Thu Oct 18, 2012 3:56 pm

T'is one of the rare occasions I disagree with Chris and will be back here to rebut this when I've caught up on some crap I'm working on.

...and before anyone asks, yes, I'm positive I'll be back. Very Happy

Nick
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Re: How Positive Thinking Fucked the Martial Arts.

Post  Chris on Mon Oct 22, 2012 10:51 am

Nick Hughes wrote:T'is one of the rare occasions I disagree with Chris and will be back here to rebut this when I've caught up on some crap I'm working on.

...and before anyone asks, yes, I'm positive I'll be back. Very Happy

Nick

I think we'll probably be more in accord than you think Nick. I suspect you are more heavily pre-disposed to "positive psychology" than "positive thinking".

You actively go out and own your own successes, and failures. The article is pointed towards those who feel that the sweat and acceptance of potential failure is not relevant to them.
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Re: How Positive Thinking Fucked the Martial Arts.

Post  Socrates on Fri Oct 26, 2012 3:40 am

I've been pondering this a bit. I think it's important to make a distinction between a positive attitude and positive thinking. When life comes and bites you on the arse, a positive attitude is basically something like this: "Well, I might be screwed, but I'm going to try and work something out." By contrast, a negative attitude would be: "I'm screwed, so I'm going to just sit around and complain about things."

If you accept that distinction, a positive attitude is massively important. Without it, human beings would still be using stone tools. On an individual basis, none of us would have taken up martial arts.

A positive attitude isn't necessarily the same as positive thinking, although there is an element of cross-over. There is some evidence that visualizing positive outcomes can help people achieve their goals. Of course, you have to be careful not to indulge in magical thinking ("If I dream it, it will come true.")
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Re: How Positive Thinking Fucked the Martial Arts.

Post  Jagunco on Sat Oct 27, 2012 3:34 am

I suppose positive thinking has it place like anything else, in the proper moderation and applied with common sense.

It is certainly overused in a few of the clubs I've trained at. I've been told off a few times for what people called negative thinking but to me was a correction of a technique.

The result speaks for itself really. A lot of clubs with a lot of people who are happy but doing far less than they are able to do. In these clubs I recall a shocking fitness level, poor technique and worst of all a students who though they had to the right to contradict instructors and refuse to do elements of training purely because they had decided they couldn't be chewed with the effort required to perfect it

On the flip side of course I have seen clubs where he instructor was overly negative which had just as, if not more, damaging results.
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Re: How Positive Thinking Fucked the Martial Arts.

Post  TonyJ. on Sun Oct 28, 2012 3:43 pm

the denial about how violence actually occurs and how it feels distracts martial artists from questioning their training and actively pursuing a more realistic training programme. That inability to critically examine the requirements of a violent encounter and face it fully prevent self analysis and self knowledge. It also prevents the development of a healthy pessimism which suggests that maybe arguing with the snarling psychopath about the last parking space or walking home alone at two in the morning across wastland is not the best of ideas.

As human beings and as Martial Artists we need a grown-up disdain for complacency, compliance and conformity, and we need an internal critical forum where we are free to examine our discontent or limitations realistically.

Positive thinking is snake oil in general, knowing your own skillset and aiming for your optimum or just beyond that is just realistic expections.

IMHO most of the people that come through the door couldn't or put it a better way wouldn't fight their way through physically adverse encounters regardless of the skillset you provided them with.

Why?
I was laughing today watching the national geographic channel when water rats attack crocodiles as its their only defence (obviously they got anihilated but that's not the point).
When a yorkshire terrier goes after a large rotweiller there's no reasoning or umming and considering what may happen, once its on its on.

Nick, when you were confronted by the large gang in london did you think about the situation or what could of been done prior or did you just get down to business? That's a rhetorical question Laughing

The thought of self belief or winning shouldn't even come into it, it should should just be getting stuck in and doing what needs to be done (or doing you're damndest to that end anyway).

People don't accept the realities of combat and just as worse the possible fall out afterwards with johnny law and the disgruntled lout who thinks he's Tony Soprano . Rolling Eyes

A positive thinking misguided self belief is totally different unhealthy mindset.

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Re: How Positive Thinking Fucked the Martial Arts.

Post  Nick Hughes on Sun Oct 28, 2012 7:50 pm

Alright...I'm a huge proponent of positive thinking inside and outside of the martial arts.

Outside of the martial arts let's go outside and look around. There isn't one thing you can see built or made that was made by someone with a negative mindset.

Your car wasn't designed by someone who thought it couldn't be done. Your house wasn't built by someone who didn't think it could be built or that it would fall down the instant it was.

"Hey, I think we should build a bridge to go across the Thames"

Negative Thinker: "Nah, never work."

"How about a plane...let's build something that flies."

Negative Thinker: "No way, you're fooking crazy. You can't fly. How do you think you'll ever fly. I'm a negative thinker me...you try that and the worst that can happen will and you'll crash and burn and die."

Queen Isabella: "Christopher Columb, I need you to sail off and find riches and treasures for me

Christopher "The Negative" Columbus" I don't think so your majesty. I think if we try that we'll sail off the edge of the (flat) earth and sink our ships and surely fail. Why bother?

"Christopher "the Positive" Columbus: Of course your Majesty, not only will I accomplish what you ask, I'll discover America at the same time.

If we (or you) were truly negative nothing would ever get done...ever. Why would you even get out of bed? Surely the water heater will be broken, you'll nick yourself shaving, the car won't start, you'll be late for work, you'll be fired, you'll be mugged and the lunch you eat will make you sick. You may as well just stay at home and give up.

Spare me...I'm all about looking at the bright side and believing that I can achieve any damn thing I want (more on that in a minute)

My mother, bless her cotton socks, is probably the most negative person I know and if I'd listened to her instead of believing what I read in the book "The Magic of Thinking Big" I would never have played sports (doctors said I shouldn't after contracting osteomyelitus when I was six), never have undertaken martial arts, never have left to join the Legion, ventured overseas, got a pilot's license or any of the other things I've achieved over the years.

Tony: I certainly wouldn't have got stuck in to the mob mate...I'd have left my girlfriend in the dust and bolted because being negative I would have "known" that what I was attempting was impossible and that I would lose. It was exactly my being positive that I could beat the mongrel bastids that caused me to go get them. (Of course there's a mental fight going on when you do that -- half of the time walking towards them I was thinking this is it dickhead, your swansong awaits, but I countered it immediately with 'shut up, and get it done')

From a recent study conducted at Stanford University: Researcher found that teenagers who had the most self confidence - including believing they could successfully improve their math skills - actually had the most success doing so, consistently outperforming their peers and improving their test scores throughout the course of the two year study. Another study at Pennsylvania University found positive thinkers outperformed negative thinkers on iQ tests.

From another study about positive thinkers and negotiations: It was found that people who thought positively prior to the negotiations outperformed those who did not. "Kopelman, S Rosette, A.S & Thompson, L. (2006) The 3 Faces of Eve: Strategic displays of positive, negative, and neutral emotions in negotiations. Organizational Behavior and Human Decision Processes, 99, 88-101.

The lists go on and on and on. Positive thinking works and the alternative is hopeless.

Now, in martial arts it's the same as far as I'm concerned. Why bother to teach anyone if you're not convinced you can turn them into someone who can win? I don't get it!!! I've taken thousands of people over the years and taught them what I know and have a slew of emails, letters and phone calls over the years thanking me for that knowledge which enabled them to prevail. If I wasn't 100% positive I could do that why would I open a school in the first place?

Of course, if you're talking crap like the law of attraction, as featured in "The Secret" whereby you can sit around and just think happy positive thoughts and everything will be ok well then I agree with you. Total and utter nonsense. The law of attraction needs the first four letters knocked off the front of it. We have to take action if we want anything done.

I also have to add that yes, I agree, it has to be balanced with a degree of healthy skepticism. Looking at some snarling monster and being positive you can beat him isn't what I'm on about at all. All of the training I give my students is based on the realities of violent encounters i.e. you can get hurt, you could accidentally kill the other guy, you can suffer legal ramifications etc but, if it is time to go, go all out positive in the knowledge that you absolutely can win this thing.

Going too far the other way gives us the nonsense I hear again and again about knife fights i.e. "you WILL get cut." What an attitude to give your students to set them up for failure and it's bollocks. I've been in them and I haven't been cut at all and I've been in them where I have. The correct attitude therefore would be "it's possible you will be cut during a an encounter with a knife, be prepared for it, and know that they're only fatal in 10% of cases so the odds are absolutely in your favor that you'll win."

Just some of my thoughts on the whole thing...

Nick

PS: "I think the Mayan calendar is right and the world will end this year."
"Stop being so negative."
"Ok, I'm positive the Mayan calendar is right and the world will end this year." Very Happy
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Re: How Positive Thinking Fucked the Martial Arts.

Post  Chris on Mon Oct 29, 2012 12:17 pm

Aaah but Nick, I could do the same thing and add serious weight to my argument.

Positive thinker..... I think I can fly so I'm going to jump off this cliff because I can do anything.
Positive Psychologist.... better take off from the ground first to test the theory. Even better...let's accept the laws of physics and working from the principle that man alone if not capable of flight let's develop technology using scientific principles which allows man to develop methods of aided flight.

Positive thinker says... I want to be independently wealthy so I'm going to ask the universe to give me all the money I need.
Positive Psychologist says.... people wont give you something for nothing. How about you develop marketable skills first then see about gaining subsequent wealth. Best find a way to generate money that is real because being hungry and having no home sucks ass!

Positive thinker says... I cannot be ill... I will use the power of my mind to ensure that I am not laid low by illness, disease, syndromes or degeneration.
Positive Psychologist says... health is not controlled by mindset. You best be prepared to utiilse medical expertise and take medical advice when required. There are those who are experts in each area and that expertise is based on scientific study not hope and faith alone.


When the shit is about the hit the spinning fan nobody says "hope for the best". They say, "what is the worst thing that could happen?" and they plan accordingly.

When lives are at stake invariably processes of check and counter check and worst case scenarios are what hold sway. Belts, braces and judicious combinations of the two. Not hope and faith. Understanding of real limitations and using that understanding to form a plan of action is key.

Big business have the same approach to risk. Base your plans on worst case scenarios.
Armed forces use a pessimistic approach to handling conflict
Mechanical engineering doesn't say, "we will build this bridge to hold the lightest loads it may possibly be asked to handle." it builds to handle more than it may be asked to deal with.

When shit gets real, pessimism holds sway and reality is king.

I'm all for people aspiring and being innovative. I just have no time at all when those same people are unwilling to accept that their "belief" needs to change in the face of what is provable and "real" .

I recently read about the philosophy of "pre mortem" when a group of specialists are brought into a room. Introduced to a concept and then told that the concept has suffered a catastrophic failure. Their task is to then report back on what that catastrophic failure would be. As a result of this activity you effectively bomb proof the programme because you have already understood and devolved the worst case scenario.

How's about that for the positive impact of pessimism!! Very Happy
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Re: How Positive Thinking Fucked the Martial Arts.

Post  Nick Hughes on Mon Oct 29, 2012 2:18 pm

You're agreeing with me...

I said it has to be balanced with a healthy dose of skepticism so your flying example is flawed and I also said sitting around wishing things would happen without taking action wouldn't work so your example of someone waiting for the universe to give them money is wishful thinking not positive thinking.

As for hope and faith not having an impact on health...wow! There are too many stories to count where doctors have written people off and they've survived solely because of their hope and their faith.

Not a lot of people know that Marcus Wynne was one of only two people to ever walk out of the ward he was in for cancer at the Mayo clinic. It was pretty much assumed that when you went in that ward you were circling the drain and it was only a matter of time. The two people who got out? A kid who's family was praying for him that the doctors deemed a miracle and Marcus who used his NLP and positive thinking that he was getting out alive.

Again, am I saying on it's own it's enough? Not at all, but you'd better have it in abundance if you want to make it back in a lot of cases.

Aborigines in Australia will die if the witch doctor points a bone at them...obviously it's psychosomatic but if such negative thinking is powerful enough to cause someone to die within a few days of such a pouri pouri ritual then what power does positive thinking have? I would submit its power is immense.

Oh ye of little faith. lol!

Nick
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Re: How Positive Thinking Fucked the Martial Arts.

Post  Chris on Mon Oct 29, 2012 3:35 pm

Sorry Nick, latest surveys of studies in the area show that positive thinkers do NOT have a greater survival rate when sufferring from critical conditions. In fact, they have a slightly higher mortality rate than patients who accepted their condition as being serious. Genetic research shows that the diet of our great grandfather has more impact on our health than our mindset. Plus positive thinkers are mentally exhausted! Better saving energy in calming meditation and lowering blood pressure and cortisol.

There's a fascinating book based on the largest study of positive thinking which strongly questions the nature of a methodology which tries to convince patients who are not doing so well that their deterioration is due to not being positive enough. "The tyranny of positive thinking."
If any form of alternative medicine worked, it would simply be called medicine. That includes positive thinking which has all the impact physically of a five year old wishing Santa Claus would being her a new doll at Xmas. She gets the doll from mam and dad because they are real. She believes that Santa brought it because she is convinced and programmed to believe that following the fairy tale legend and Xmas process means lots of lovely presents. Her positive thinking and buying into the myth doesn't make Santa any more real and the doll arriving on Xmas day isn't proof that elves live at the South Pole.

And don't even get me started on that bag of nonsense and tosh called NLP.
Very Happy
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Re: How Positive Thinking Fucked the Martial Arts.

Post  Nick Hughes on Mon Oct 29, 2012 4:39 pm

Hmmm, maybe you could convince Marcus and the staff at the Mayo clinic it doesn't work...or the guys in GA when Marcus showed up and used it to train two girls in 12 minutes (being timed) who'd never shot before who then "killed" their SWAT team...or the two Swedish female cops he trained in 4 hrs to pass the HK course that normally takes 4 days. (and don't say psychologists/therapists don't rate it. Why would they when it fixes things in minutes they claim they need years to cure)

Anyway...enough of NLP. Mayhaps you could explain if positive thinking has no benefit how placebos cure 30 - 75% of illnesses they're prescribed for. If what someone thinks has no effect on outcomes how could this be possible? (and yes, the 30 to 75% is medical fact and documented). Very Happy

Nick

PS: I'm positive I'm going to win this debate. LOL
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Re: How Positive Thinking Fucked the Martial Arts.

Post  Chris on Tue Oct 30, 2012 2:42 am

Problem is Nick, how many patients who went into the Mayo and died in that month alone DIDN'T want to live. Is anyone really saying that Marcus survived and all those thousands of others died because those others patients simply didn't want to live enough or didn't have the right attitude? That's a huge leap in logic!

There are literally thousands of critical patients in the UK alone who each day fight to survive until their last breath. They still die. Just walk round any ICU and you will be literally swamped by faith and hope and positive thinking. Those people are dying every day, not because they didn't fight but because we are finite creatures. Logically, Marcus was one of the happy few who beat the odds, it happens from time to time. Easy enough to find stories of "miraculous" recoveries. They aren't miracles, they are records of reality where sometimes lightening does strike an individual and their lottery numbers come up. They aren't miracles, with the vast numbers dying each day of course some lucky buggers will pull through... that time!

Placebo use is another interesting point. I was just reading on medweb the other day about New studies investigating the placebo effect and its medical use in studies. What they have found is that even if they tell the patient they are taking a placebo and they mark it on the bottle in shouty letters that it is a placebo it is still having some effect on those people taking it. That isn't making doctors think, wow the mind is curing the body. In fact the patient KNOWS they are not receiving medicine of any kind. Guess what, no downward spiral either from the MIND knowing the body isn't being treated. The overall effect is only to reduce other secondary effects of the condition like nausea, some pain relief etc. The ritual effect of receiving the pill from the nurse, it looking like pills should look and swallowing it in the usual way just like we are conditioned to do gives an ordered calmness to some patients. Doesn't make them any better or worse in regards to their condition. The expected percentages of recovery and deterioration still hold true. Proving that what the mind believes or in this case KNOWS as fact has no impact on recovery rates. The people who get well were getting well anyway. So much for the power of the mind in recovery. Plus... That rate of 35 to 70 per cent! Could it be any wider to ensure any and all success for whatever reason is counted! pirat

Now, if you wanted to talk about how genes are impacted by the mind and how that links into wellbeing then everyone is excited about that possibility cos nobody really.understands the link yet, they just know it exists and as I mention above your grandfather's diet is infinitely more impactful on your health than whether you have read Bandler's smoke and mirror job about NLP.

Age old questions which aid advancement in science.
What do we think?
What do we know?
What can we prove?
afro
No other tests need apply
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Re: How Positive Thinking Fucked the Martial Arts.

Post  DaveCollins on Tue Oct 30, 2012 3:11 am

Chris wrote:
What do we think?
What do we know?
What can we prove?
afro
No other tests need apply

Ooh, ontology & epistemology - there's a whole new thread! Shocked

DaveCollins

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Re: How Positive Thinking Fucked the Martial Arts.

Post  Chris on Tue Oct 30, 2012 3:22 am

DaveCollins wrote:
Chris wrote:
What do we think?
What do we know?
What can we prove?
afro
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Ooh, ontology & epistemology - there's a whole new thread! Shocked

What can I say, I like the classics Dave! Very Happy

Reality, knowledge and justification are really the key here. I blame the internet for allowing justification to become the key component in the current majority perception and understanding. Very Happy Mind you, we can justify pretty much anything and call it knowledge because that is the reality we desire for ourselves and others. What we can prove becomes much less important than what we believe because a) proving stuff is difficult, time consuming and sometimes expensive and b) we believe those things which most suit our desires and letting go of those beliefs is equally as difficult.
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Chris
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Re: How Positive Thinking Fucked the Martial Arts.

Post  Socrates on Mon Nov 19, 2012 5:04 am

I saw this and thought of Chris: http://www.npr.org/2012/11/13/162742151/antidote-prescribes-a-negative-path-to-happiness?ft=1&f=1008
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Socrates

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Re: How Positive Thinking Fucked the Martial Arts.

Post  Chris on Mon Nov 19, 2012 6:31 am

cracking article Soc, I am in 100% agreement. Smile
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Re: How Positive Thinking Fucked the Martial Arts.

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