The other Wagner thread

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ok guys, i said i wouldnt be back, but wanted to share this

Post  gone on Fri Sep 14, 2012 1:10 pm

this information is direct from jim wagner. read it as you will, and do your research, i guess your still find away around it and say he is fake. but your choice.

Jim Wagner
I AM NOT YOUR PUNCHING BAG.

I truly have some good friends and loyal Reality-Based Personal Protection practitioners in this world. Thank you for all writing in support of me, and the support of the Reality-Based Personal Protection system in response to HERE WE GO AGAIN, JIMW WAGNER IS A FRAUD that was posted on my wall a few days ago. My decision to come to you, my 4,000 plus friends, on Facebook in order to get your input about this situation was indeed the right decision. “In the multitude of counselors there is wisdom.”

I never did hear back from Nick Huges of Krav Maga Lake Norman in North Carolina who basically copied and pasted false information about me that Hock Hochheim has been writing and spreading for years on his website and others. In fact, what I posted on his business Facebook wall was immediately taken down. I guess he didn’t want his students to see the behavior of their instructor. But, we certainly heard from Chris Wilson. And, I will address Chris Wilson for the next couple of minutes here before I drop him as a Facebook friend. “With friends like that, who needs enemies,” as the saying goes.

Chris Wilson, if I had to respond to every forum and blog that wrote something about me I would have to make it my full-time job. In case you haven’t noticed, there are a lot of people in cyberspace writing about me. I did however, take a quick look at the forum you were writing on about me, and it is not even worth my time respond on it. The only reason I even knew about his forum was because Gary Dell, the Reality-Based Personal Protection Director of the United Kingdom, saw what was written about me on it and was wonder why Nick Hughes, and American whom I have never met, was hell bent on trying to discourage Brits from signing up for my October courses in Devon, England. What was the connection? It was reminiscent of what Hock Hochheim tried to do a few years ago with his UK Director at the time - Joe Hubbard. They both tried very hard to trash my name in the UK in order to discourage people from signing up for my courses there. The result of their attacks was that I got some free advertising, people checked out my website, DVDs, and books, and signed up for my courses anyway. In fact, Gary Dell called me yesterday and said, “Jim, this is brilliant. This controversy has actually been good. I got two more sign ups last night.” Why? Because, people can see right through my competitor’s tactics. It’s pretty obvious. However, I don’t even like to call them “competitors,” because I don’t have competitors. I actually encourage my students to take courses from other instructors, even bad ones, to be able to compare techniques, training methods, and various explanations. Several of my students have come up to me this year asking me, “Should I take a Hock Hochheim course?” My response was always, “Yes. I think you should. I know a bit about his system, and I do think you will learn a few good things from him.” I even wrote to Hock Hochheim a few years ago asking him to stop trashing my name, and I would even actively send people his way like I do for Avi Nardia, Moni Aizik, Tony Blauer. Now, these three world-class instructors mentioned never once said one bad word against me because they actually know my background, and that’s why I go out of my way to recommend them for a different perspective. But, Hock Hochheim not only did not want to stop spreading his libel and slanders about me, but he actually picked up the pace. If I had a radio interview Hock Hochheim would immediately call them after the show and spread his poison. If I was on the cover of another martial arts magazine somewhere in the world he would contact that magazine and protest their decision for featuring me, and of course this is all well documented. Go figure. Who has that kind of time?

As far as my background goes, anyone can go to my website and look at my biography. I believe that the text, photos, and documents are more extensive than 99% of the martial arts instructors out there. I also addressed the accusations, again, through an article I wrote for World Wide Dojo a couple of years ago, and here is the link: http://www.worldwidedojo.com/reality-based/articles-by-author/is-jim-wagner-a-liar/
Apparently, you are a newcomer to all of this controversy.

Chris Wilson, I understand that Gary Dell, my Director, has invited you to come to my courses in England; you’re very own back yard. I understand that he wanted your honest input, and if all of the experts that are attending this course with you agreed with your negative assessment of what I teach that you would get the courses for free. We have never done this before, offer such a sweet deal, but I trust Gary and said, “Why not.” I’ve been eyeball to eyeball with Los Angeles gang members, motorcycle bikers, White Supremists, drunks, druggies, murderers, rapists, and terrorists, so why not a martial arts critic? I also understand you turned down his offer. Oh well, I guess you were not willing to put your money where your mouth is. After all, I always tend to get a good mix of Royal Marines, constables, and martial arts instructors from every known system coming to these seminars. In fact, Paul Drury, one of the most respected instructors in the UK and who is hosting the event for the third time, would be willing to give you his opinion on what he thinks about the material that I teach. But, oh wait! It’s all about what Hock Hochheim wrote about me that prevent you from coming, or what Nick Hughes copied and pasted. Well then, how about if I give you a different angle that you can get your head around. If you have enough proof then will that change your mind about me? Would that get you to stop participating in the libel? So, here we go.

I am currently a Staff Sergeant with the California Military Department. They oversee the Army National Guard and the California State Military Reserve: the finest people in California – HOOAH! I’ve served with them for 7 years. I am currently in a military police unit and have been training troops for years for Iraq, Kosovo, Afghanistan and State missions. When I handed them my background documents and wrote down all of my past information on a legal document years ago it included my service as a corrections officer, police officer, SWAT officer, Reserve Deputy Sheriff (Reserve) as a Patrol Supervisor and Dignitary Protection Unit Team Leader, and United States Federal Air Marshal (counterterrorism); Hock Hochheim does not seem to think the FAMs are counterterrorists, but you can check it out for yourself on their official government website tsa.gov/lawenforcement/programs/fams.shtm. If any, and I mean ANY, information was not accurate I would have been kicked out of the military, and especially serving as a military police soldier. They do not look favorably on false information on an application or during the background check. So, since my service goes back to the beginning of 2006, and Hock Hochheim started attacking me in 2004, the information in my package just about covers most of those years.

Now, strangely enough, somebody contacted the California Military Department a few years ago stating that I had lied about my background. How do I know this? Because one lovely morning I was called into my commanding officer’s office and informed about the accusations. Well, needless to say an investigation was conducted. They had no choice. They had to look into the matter. I was used to this, for this had also happened in the Orange County Sheriff’s Department before that. The result of the investigation was UNFOUNDED, and I went back to my duties. There is a reason I have been selected as a sworn corrections officer, police officer, deputy sheriff, and a U.S. Federal Agent – it’s called integrity. I don’t lie. For all of you who had to go through a federal background check for a SECRET classification, you know how in depth they go to find dirt on you, and if anything comes out you are GONE! Well, I am past 20 years of service to my communities and my country, so that can never be taken away from me.

Now, before that investigation with the military was the investigation with the United States State Department back in 2003. I was being investigated because I someone accused me of being an “an Al Qaeda instructor.” Imagine that, I had been all over the world training Western counterterrorist teams and SWAT teams, and I was accused of being the enemy. That was a nice detailed investigation where practically every minute of my life was accounted for. Well, thank God for good investigators, because they finally found the source of the accusations and they were not too happy about it, and I am sure the accuser was not too thrilled with their anger as well. Having the federal government go on a wild goose chase brings certain consequences. However, for me, again, UNFOUNDED. Oh, please don’t read into this, I’m not saying Hock Hochheim was responsible for that one. He’s not that stupid. Not too many people want to take it that far. That’s the kind of thing that can land someone in a federal prison. Let’s just say that the accuser, actually it was a group of accusers, was jealous that I was teaching elite police and military units worldwide and they thought that they would throw a monkey wrench into my spokes.

So, how about if we go back to 1999 when I started teaching internationally, because you, Chris Wilson, seem so concerned about finding out the truth about my background as an international instructor.

I have taught police and military units at the highest levels, and I mean HIGHEST; counterterrorist, people who protect presidents, kings and queens, and those in a wide variety of positions that risk their lives for people like you. So feel free to contact any one of these governments yourself and get the truth yourself. Don’t rely on Hock Hochheim’s “investigative reporting” and his parrots. So, here’s a list of agencies you can contact, for they have all looked into my background before having me instructor their personnel for the past decade:

German Federal Police
Dutch Federal Police
Spanish Federal Police
Trinidad & Tobago Federal Police
Bulgarian Federal Police
Israeli Police (Municipal & Border Police).

If you want to go back even further into my background and contact these agencies about me, feel free. Do it yourself so that you will get direct information and not rely on someone else’s agenda:

FBI
U.S. Army PMO
U.S. Marines PMO
U.S. Navy PMO
U.S. Air Force Security Forces
U.S. Coast Guard
Oh, and don’t forget the United States State Department. But, maybe you should hold off a few months with them, because after the recent attacks on our U.S. Missions worldwide I’m sure they are quite busy now. But once the air clears, I’ve helped train personnel protecting some of our U.S. Missions, and you’ll be able to get some insight from them.

I’m sure that I am leaving out a few agencies, for these are the ones that come to mind right now, but that should be enough. It’s more verification than most self-defense and tactics instructors would have.

Hmmm, I just thought of another couple of contacts. You can contact Robert Young with Black Belt magazine, and while you are at it I recommend getting a year’s subscription to their magazine. Anyway, Robert Young attended a course I taught at MCB Camp Pendleton where I was the chief instructor for the United States Marines and the U.S. Marshals Special Operations Group. Not only did he see me teach, he saw me fight several times full-contact two attackers at a time. I had to, because my assistant instructor got his nose broke and had to go to the hospital. It was pretty bad. And, I have invited Robert Young to several courses I was teaching for police and military.

You can then contact Alfredo Tucci, the publisher of Budo International in Madrid, Spain. I was introduced to him by Spanish counterterrorists in 2000. Everything he published before I got there was traditional martial arts based at that time in history, like all the rest of the martial arts magazines in the world. He saw my Reality-Based Personal Protection system as “revolutionary,” and I’ve been working with him ever since. He knows that I have taught personnel from Spanish police and military units, including the Special Forces. Many of these professions have actually helped me with DVDs and articles as well in his facility. Maybe this last contact will convince you that Hoch Hochheim, Joe Hubbard, and Nich Hughes are liars. Maybe if you talk to Mr. Tucci, and the rest of those on my list that I gave you, you yourself will stop assassinating my character on public forums. When Joe Hubbard and Hock Hochheim started attacking me he called them, “Shit!” After all, they were biting the very hand that was feeding them. They came along years after I had been making DVDs with Mr. Tucci and did some projects with him. I didn’t say a word about them. However, once Mr. Tucci found out they were trying to destroy me he was pissed. By this time I had about 15 DVDs out on the market that Mr. Tucci had produced through his company Budo International, and they were some of his top selling DVDs. So, their stupid attacks were also trying to hurt Mr. Tucci, the very man who tried to promote them as well. These two “professionals” didn’t realize that Mr. Tucci had heard all this crap before, and he was tired of it. The bottom line was that my stuff was selling. That’s what business is all about – profit. He’s also a man of integrity, and he knew first hand my background and that the Spanish authorities were backing me up.

So Chris Wilson, that ends our Facebook friendship. I don’t mind constructive criticism, and honest discussion, but you have crossed the red line. I’ll give you enough time to contact my references and for you to conduct your own research on my background. Then I’m sure you will post your findings. After all, everything that I write on my Facebook wall seems to show up in many forums worldwide. There are a few of my Facebook “friends” that are spies, and that’s fine. It’s unethical, but there are just some people like that. I myself am not on anyone’s Facebook who is against me or my system. I don’t have that kind of time, nor do I even care. If you get official documentation from any of these sources that I have supplied you, and they state that I have falsified any of my background, then I guess I would owe you an apology. But, if you find that I am telling the truth then be man enough to give me a public apology. Hock Hochheim has had years to put up real proof about me, especially anything that would disqualify me from teaching self-defense or tactics, but strangely enough there are no official agency statements, no court documents, no government agencies disavowing me. It’s all a bunch of, “he said and she said.” I don’t talk behind his back, for I have called him a liar directly though an email to him, and he has responded by continuing to with continuing attacks against me and updating old ones on his website. He claims he hates doing it, but he sees it as an unfortunate public service to the martial arts community. What a saint! Him I somewhat understand, because he wants the title of the person who started the reality-based movement, and wants me stripped of that title. He has made that perfectly clear to publishers Cheryl Angelheart, Alfredo Tucci, W.R. Mann, and others. What I have a hard time understanding are people like Nick Hughes and you who just accept his garbage and pass it on without lifting a finger to check things out for yourself. Do me a favor, think for yourself, do your research, and I look forward to hearing back from you.

For you true friends of mine, the last time I addressed these accusations was two years ago. So, it will probably be a while before I must do it again. Unlike Hock Hochheim I do have official government documentation proving my case. I can prove that he has libel himself, and it will see the light of day.

Be A Hard Target.

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Re: The other Wagner thread

Post  Chris on Fri Sep 14, 2012 3:04 pm

So much to say, so little time.

This will have to wait a short while before I respond in full.

Needless to say, this is another very obvious attempt to control the terms, time and content of the discussion. I'm happy to deal with a discussion but certainly not someone walking into a room and having a mouthpiece make statements.

It's a long, somewhat emotive and entertaining piece. Not a whole lot of corroborative evidence contained. Just a bunch of statements asking to be taken as fact.

Let's make a few things clear before I delve into the meat and bones at a time of my choosing.

1) I have nothing to do with Hock Hocheim or his views on Wagner. I responded to an impolite individual who joined this forum with the sole intent to promote a product. I found that rude. I read further queries around Wagners background and did a quick look for general viewpoints. Funnily enough a lot of sources shared the same perspective on Wagner. Padded resume, markets like a madman and is more slippery than an eel when queried about his background. Not just Hockeim by the way but a number of independent sources coming to the same conclusion. I have posted investigations that can be found within a few minutes. I had absolutely NO intention of taking that discussion anywhere other than this forum. THEN Wagner made another lengthy statement on his facebook profile as a direct response to what was said here so I commented. There began the usual internet buffonery.

2) I have no interest at all in who individually vouches for Wagner and his material. In the same way that it doesn't matter at all if someone from HMG vouches for me as an individual or confirms my status... it only matters that I have verifiable HMG SC and CTC clearance through the MOD and through the correct documentation. Same with my CRB's, professional qualifications etc. In short, with the professional stuff that matters there is ALWAYS independently verifiable evidence. As an example, if you want to know whether someone has a Masters Degree you don't ask someone who taught them at University. You ask to see the degree and then contact the University Admin office to confirm its validity.

3) I have quite clearly shown the level of interaction that takes place when you dare to query, even in the most polite manner the background (not material or teaching ability) of Jim Wagner. Threats, insults and the usual level of internet interaction for teenagers rather than grown adults. I find it hypocritical to try to hold others to a level of behaviour and deportment when "followers" are bandying insults throwing out threats and asking to fight those people that Wagner indicate. That is peurile, juvenile and potentially criminal behaviour if you want to get adult about it.

4) Wagner still has not had the courtesy to address me personally yet he makes demands that I jump through his hoops in return. As mentioned above, he does not get to dictate the terms of this interaction as if he is somehow in charge of the exchange. He is not. He is merely in charge of sending his rep to do his work on his behalf. Not gonna happen sparky.

5) This was never about training, material and whether it was good bad or indifferent. This was about the claims that Wagner has made about his background. Claims that other professionals in those fields have taken great exception to. I was first of accused of "acting the hard lad" so should show up at the course. Then I was an "armchair warrior" and a "looser" (I think he meant loser but hey.... common mistake) Told to "big up" and attend the course if I had the "bottle) all of this I have copies of by the way. SO.. .of course I was desparate to attend!!!!

First of all... If I wanted to attend a course I'd pay. I don't need a discount or deal.
Second... I wasn't going, had no interest in going and still wont be going because I have no desire to train with Wagner.
Third... this so called deal lhas now changed its terms three times in any event. Initially it was "come down and I'll see Jim about doing you a deal." Then is was "come down, the invitation is there (with the suggestion that the course would be free) thenfinally Wagner turns the tables again to say, "come down and if the other people on the course say its crap then you'll get a refund" So.... you want me to PAY for a course I have no interest in attending then allow the other people who are there to decide whether it is worth MY money or not. Don't be ridiculous.
Finally.... Devon is NOT in my backyard. It's about as far away from my backyard as it gets.

Let me just finish by saying... I'm not the guy you want to be throwing terms like "libel" around with. If Wagner truly feels he has been libelled then he should immediately see legal advice and instigate proceedings. No question. As these issues have surrounded Wagner for the last four years at least then I wonder why proceedings haven't already at least begun?

Anyway... that's enough for me for now. Real life beckons and I have sleep to lose over Wagner removing me from his facebook list (does he really think that everyone on friends lists are people you'd invite to your next birthday party for custard and jelly?). I may come back to this, I may not. I may dig a little deeper on Wagner I may not but rest assured whatever I do will be my decision. Oh and seriously, some of these guys really need to jettison the wannabe James Bond profile pics and the "merican" attitude, it makes you look a little silly.


Last edited by Chris on Fri Sep 14, 2012 3:35 pm; edited 2 times in total
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Re: The other Wagner thread

Post  gone on Fri Sep 14, 2012 3:11 pm

bla bla bla


Last edited by control-defence on Sat Sep 15, 2012 1:15 am; edited 1 time in total (Reason for editing : dfdfdfdfdf)

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Re: The other Wagner thread

Post  Chris on Fri Sep 14, 2012 3:12 pm

control-defence wrote:so glad you responded, just goes to show, he provides the evidence and your not interested. chris your just an arm chair warrior, you dont have the guts to phone me to discuss it. its clear your just a trouble maker. guttless idiot. i hope your students know this, they should be training with you or shoudl you be training if your this guttless. good night

Send me your number.
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Re: The other Wagner thread

Post  gone on Fri Sep 14, 2012 3:17 pm

bla bla bla


Last edited by control-defence on Sat Sep 15, 2012 1:15 am; edited 1 time in total (Reason for editing : fgfgfgfdd)

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Re: The other Wagner thread

Post  gone on Fri Sep 14, 2012 3:18 pm

same reply i got from you on jims site. lol .

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Re: The other Wagner thread

Post  gone on Fri Sep 14, 2012 3:26 pm

zzz


Last edited by gone on Wed Sep 19, 2012 9:59 am; edited 1 time in total

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Re: The other Wagner thread

Post  Chris on Fri Sep 14, 2012 3:27 pm

control-defence wrote:this aint a dating forum chis!! wrong place lol

and that's absolutely right. Thank you for confirming what I already thought. It's like wrestling pigs... everyone gets dirty and only the pig enjoys it.

same reply i got from you on jims site. lol .

It's called facebook. It's not Jim Wagner's "site". Not unless he is claiming to have invented facebook as well as everything else he has claimed.

Over and Out. Be a hard target! I for one, in the words of Dragon's Den, am out.
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Re: The other Wagner thread

Post  Chris on Fri Sep 14, 2012 3:32 pm

control-defence wrote:im deleting myself off this site now, cant be doing with you guys, all time wasters and no time to listen to the truth. its been provided and you still cant see it. your loss guys, good luck with forum. enjoy slating jim, your loss.

and so it goes. I could have written the script two days ago and saved myself the wear and tear on my fingertips.
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Re: The other Wagner thread

Post  Chris on Fri Sep 14, 2012 3:52 pm

control-defence wrote:im deleting myself off this site now, cant be doing with you guys, all time wasters and no time to listen to the truth. its been provided and you still cant see it. your loss guys, good luck with forum. enjoy slating jim, your loss.

Well one thing is for sure, stay or go will be your choice. Ade and Pete don't hit the ban button easily here. One of the byproducts of allowing objective thinking is that sometimes you have to live with disagreements.
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Re: The other Wagner thread

Post  Mr Nobody on Fri Sep 14, 2012 4:29 pm

I'm an absolute ninja in my armchair and I will accept challenges from anyone.

Neutral
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Re: The other Wagner thread

Post  Mr Nobody on Fri Sep 14, 2012 4:34 pm

And let me get this straight, this fellow is charing $2225 per person per day for his seminars?!?!?

Does he turn the students into Ironman or something?!?!

How can any self defence instructor charge such an exorbitant fee?!?!?

Why am I using so many question marks combined with exclamation marks?!?!?

I trained with Rich Dimitri once. Just a quick 4 hour seminar or so that he did while he was on holiday in NZ. He charged us NZ$20 (about 10quid) and there must have been about 30 of us max. Damn good value for money and I wouuld have paid more....but not $2225....

And there's no questions regarding Dimitri's character.
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Re: The other Wagner thread

Post  Chris on Fri Sep 14, 2012 4:43 pm

Nope Mr N, Wagner charges around $4500 for two days. That is the cost for him coming and delivering his courses at your gym for two days.

Individuals are probably charged about 150 quid per person per day.
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Re: The other Wagner thread

Post  Mr Nobody on Fri Sep 14, 2012 5:06 pm

Thanks for clearing that up Chris.

What's the typical going rate for a 2 day self defence seminar in the UK anyway?
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Re: The other Wagner thread

Post  Nick Hughes on Fri Sep 14, 2012 9:27 pm

Well, I told you all he'd be back after telling us now about five times he was done here. I bet he posts again. Any takers? Very Happy

I'm with Chris on this...I will respond once I dig around some of my sources and get some evidence but it's going to take a few days to do some digging. I've got better things to do than keep banging my head on a wall...especially when you consider the nonsense answers you get back.

By the way (not that his UK rep is here and reading it or anything) none of what Wagner said is proof at all. The fact that he lists a bunch of units who all say his stuff is top notch is not one scintilla of proof that his background claims are valid. Look to Bob Spour for more of the same.

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Re: The other Wagner thread

Post  David Turton on Sat Sep 15, 2012 1:30 am

No 1
Control-defence person .. using personal insults does no credit to you or your 'claims' it makes you look really bad in the eyes of many readers on forums/facebook who are 'watching from the sidelines'
I know Chris very well, he is NO armchair warrior, he is a highly intelligent and moral person.... and is probably quite amused by your and your 'masters' rantings.

No 2
Nick once again comes on and talks intelligently and correctly

my respect for both men has increased since this debacle has come about.

No 3

Mr Nobody ...
I can only speak for myself and my organisation...
If I am being booked for seminars I charge £100 per seminar hour, regardless of how many attendees there are
so if an organiser get 30-40 attendees, they can charge somewhere in the region of £25-£35 per person, earning between £750 to £1,400.. I still charge no more than £500 for a 5 hour seminar.

If I am running a seminar myself (I have one in Doncaster next Sunday) I charge £25 for ASMAA-SDF members and £30 for guests.

And just for explanation not personal ego boosting, I am officially the highest graded pure self-defence instructor in Europe at 9th Dan
I started training in 1960 so well over 50 years involved...

Private tuition is between £25 and £35 per hour depending upon various criteria

My apologies for 'advertising'. those who know me know I have done this today just to answer Mr Nobody and give some form of comparisons

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Re: The other Wagner thread

Post  Mr Nobody on Sat Sep 15, 2012 2:47 am

Thanks for your response Dave.

Considering your experience, I'd say your prices are damn reasonable too....Now if I could just get someone to sponsor my flights, accomodation and spending money...*looks at TV and book star Nick Hughes* Wink
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Dear Jim...

Post  DaveCollins on Sat Sep 15, 2012 8:08 am

Dear Jim, you said, and I very much quote, "I’ve been eyeball to eyeball with Los Angeles gang members, motorcycle bikers, White Supremists, drunks, druggies, murderers, rapists, and terrorists..."

Obviously, you will be able to tell us the following:

'Los Angeles gang members'...which gang/s and when?
'Motorcycle bikers'..which ones, and when?
'White supremacists'...which ones, and when?
I'll give you the drunks, druggies and murderers, etc but...
'..and terrorists'...so, Jim, exactly which terrorists have you been eyeball to eyeball with? When was this? Where was it?

These are your personal claims so you can give the precise details and we don't need to rely on anyone else do we, Jim, since you were there 'eyeball to eyeball' and, presumably, mano-a-mano...

You see, Jim - or should I call you Sgt Wagner? - a gentleman of your extensive police experience will know that bullshitters and outright liars fall apart when pushed for precise details. They tend to make broad claims or give veiled hints but then can't back them up with evidence. But, you're not a bullshitter or liar, are you Jim, so we can no doubt expect to read the exact details of the actions you have specifically made public...

Looking forward to hearing from you, Jim.

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Re: The other Wagner thread

Post  Chris on Mon Sep 17, 2012 5:04 am

wont ever happen Dave. This guy has a past history of making claims, making statements without addressing the individuals on specifics and then disappears saying, "job done".

His latest trick is to use a mouthpiece like Gary Dell to issue his statements, even further removing himself from the fray.

I did some additional rudimentary digging on Wagner's claims. As I expected, there is nothing new under the sun.

The man is very adept at twisting truth to suit his ends amd marketing himself accordingly.

I especially like the fact that his California unit CANNOT be deployed outside of California.

Wagner Truth

btw. I HAVE been eyeball to eyeball with robbers, thieves, rapists, murderers, career gangsters, drug dealers etc. Put them behind bars and kept them there when required. I can give times, dates, names etc.
I HAVE the highest level of MOD security clearance. I have been CTC HMG SC checked. CRB'd also.
I HAVE taught armed forces personnel, I HAVE taught police officers etc etc.
I HAVE got martial arts credentials coming out of my ears in multiple arts. Judo/Karate/Jiu-Jitsu. Even got pics of Baby-Chris sitting at one of my first judo gradings at about 8 years old. Got a boxing record etc.
I HAVE trained with some of the best martial artists/self protection instructors in the world. Royce Gracie/Billy Robinson/Richard Dimitri/Herol Graham/Johnny Huskey etc etc.

I could go on and on. NONE of which makes me expert in any way. None of which I would EVER use for marketing purposes and if I ever DID make those claims I would expect to be strongly challenged because what I would be intimating is NOT true. The statements themselves are 100% accurate and true. The implication would not be.

Here is the bio that Wagner was promoting as of Friday last week,

bio


Last edited by Chris on Mon Sep 17, 2012 11:09 am; edited 2 times in total
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Re: The other Wagner thread

Post  David Turton on Mon Sep 17, 2012 9:24 am

Nice one Chris

That does bring a thought to 'claims' .. when someone states (claims) "I have trained with ....." they often dont quantify that

I have been TAUGHT by roughly 5 or so REAL Masters

I have been on seminars under dozens.. but its easy to say I have be TRAINED by so-and-so when it may be no more than 2-4 hours??

Its not a lie per se to state you have trained with some master other... but it often needs defining further

maybe there should be an 'unwritten rule' thats states TRAINED WITH is at least a YEAR ... and should be better named 'studied under'
attended seminars .. should be a separate claim


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Re: The other Wagner thread

Post  Chris on Mon Sep 17, 2012 9:47 am

Absolutely Dave, I am in total agreement.

Guys like Wagner (and he isn't the only one, especially in the US apparently) are very adept at spinning out a half truth to make it seem like they were Rambo's bigger badder brother.

When they aren't using half truth they use hints and intimation to let the reader or listener draw their own conclusions. As human beings we love a mystery and we are hard-wired to fill in the gaps with our own perferred conclusions. It's a psychological norm that we all follow.

I'm with you. If people asked me who I have studied under then I have five names I would give. My old boxing gym, my old karate instructor, my old judo instructor, Stu Cutty and you. That's it. Hundreds of hours spent with each.

As you know I have travelled and spent many many hours on seminars and training with other instructors. Some of which are very big "names" guys like the ones mentioned above.. Trev Roberts/Pete Consterdine/John Skillen/Geoff Thompson/Mickey Gould etc etc. I could waffle on for hours. BUT... in the same way that Wagner parlays a few hours spent with Dan Inosanto into months and months of training I feel that my naming them as my "instructors" would deceitful. They have all taught me something useful but I am certainly not in a position to claim them as my instructors and therefore as part of their lineage. I hope that time spent with yourself over the last decade DOES allow me that status. Hours spent one on one developing in every way.

Guys like Wagner never last the course. Everything he has claimed comes from minimal effort. It certainly appears that he lacks the fortitude to dedicate himself to anything for any great period of time. Certainly, nothing other than his own self promotion of which he seems to be a dan grade. Put it this way, I'd be surprised if the guy could successfully complete a BFT and for the uber-warrior he claims to be that should be very simple and straight forward.


Last edited by Chris on Mon Sep 17, 2012 10:53 am; edited 1 time in total
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Re: The other Wagner thread

Post  Peter on Mon Sep 17, 2012 10:52 am

Dave, even "studied under" can be twisted.

Chris was once showing me an escape from Kesa gatame so he was on top and therefore I studied under him What a Face


Anything can and will be twisted to meet the needs of some people I'm afraid. The terminology won't correct the issue. It will always be a case of buyer beware and there will always be buyers who aren't wary waiting to be taken in.
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Re: The other Wagner thread

Post  Nick Hughes on Mon Sep 17, 2012 12:34 pm

Over here we call them "badge bunnies." They join the Army and quit after a few months, then they join a police dept, then a sheriff's dept, then the fire dept, then the TSA, then Border Patrol and so on. Like you said Chris they don't last any length of time in any unit a) because their incompetence shows through and b) people catch on as to what they're doing and just don't like them.

In the meantime though they collect all the badges and certificates under the sun. Sad really.

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Re: The other Wagner thread

Post  Peter on Mon Sep 17, 2012 1:55 pm

Just so you all know, this thread title was changed to "???" by someone, probably in an attempt to stop people seeing it. I have renamed it to suit the subject matter for ease of reference.
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Re: The other Wagner thread

Post  combatnige on Tue Sep 18, 2012 6:53 am

Blimey chaps, I have only been off the forum for a few days and all this blows up

it took me bloody ages to wade through this, and nearly nodded off at all the testimonials from Mr Wagners students.

not sure if I should add by two penneth as I too have never heard of him, never seen him on you tube or been to any of his courses. As Dave said some of his stuff mught be quite good, it's just all the 'spourious' background claims that he cant back up.


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Re: The other Wagner thread

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