"Private" Collections

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"Private" Collections

Post  Ade on Thu Sep 06, 2012 7:05 am

Hi Chris,

A slightly off topic question if i may Smile

I'm quite well versed with s139 as it is applied to edged items,but what about other curios.

Specifically,what would/would not an individual be allowed to have in a private collection?

Just to clarify i'm referring to such objects as knuckle dusters,saps,coshes,and other blunt "appliances".(all of which only have one obvious use)

Thanks mate,

Ade
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Re: "Private" Collections

Post  Wayne Harrison on Thu Sep 06, 2012 11:07 am

Not to pre-empt Chris, Very Happy ...

Section 1 Prevention of Crime Act 1953 (Offensive Weapons)..


Any person who without lawful authority or reasonable excuse, the proof whereof shall lie on him, has with him in any public place any offensive weapon shall be guilty of an offence


In this section “public place” includes any highway [F6, or in Scotland any road within the meaning of the Roads (Scotland) Act 1984] and any other premises or place to which at the material time the public have or are permitted to have access, whether on payment or otherwise; and “offensive weapon” means any article made or adapted for use for causing injury to the person, or intended by the person having it with him for such use by him [F7or by some other person].

Source: http://www.legislation.gov.uk/ukpga/Eliz2/1-2/14



1. Section 141 of the Criminal Justice Act 1988 (offensive weapons) shall apply to the following descriptions of weapons, other than weapons of those descriptions which are antiques for the purposes of this Schedule:
(a)a knuckleduster, that is, a band of metal or other hard material worn on one or more fingers, and designed to cause injury, and any weapon incorporating a knuckleduster;
(b)a swordstick, that is, a hollow walking-stick or cane containing a blade which may be used as a sword;
(c)the weapon sometimes known as a “handclaw”, being a band of metal or other hard material from which a number of sharp spikes protrude, and worn around the hand;
(d)the weapon sometimes known as a “belt buckle knife”, being a buckle which incorporates or conceals a knife;
(e)the weapon sometimes known as a “push dagger”, being a knife the handle of which fits within a clenched fist and the blade of which protrudes from between two fingers;
(f)the weapon sometimes known as a “hollow kubotan”, being a cylindrical container containing a number of sharp spikes;
(g)the weapon sometimes known as a “footclaw”, being a bar of metal or other hard material from which a number of sharp spikes protrude, and worn strapped to the foot;
(h)the weapon sometimes known as a “shuriken”, “shaken” or “death star”, being a hard non-flexible plate having three or more sharp radiating points and designed to be thrown;
(i)the weapon sometimes known as a “balisong” or “butterfly knife”, being a blade enclosed by its handle, which is designed to split down the middle, without the operation of a spring or other mechanical means, to reveal the blade;
(j)the weapon sometimes known as a “telescopic truncheon”, being a truncheon which extends automatically by hand pressure applied to a button, spring or other device in or attached to its handle;
(k)the weapon sometimes known as a “blowpipe” or “blow gun”, being a hollow tube out of which hard pellets or darts are shot by the use of breath;
(l)the weapon sometimes known as a “kusari gama”, being a length of rope, cord, wire or chain fastened at one end to a sickle;
(m)the weapon sometimes known as a “kyoketsu shoge”, being a length of rope, cord, wire or chain fastened at one end to a hooked knife;
(n)the weapon sometimes known as a “manrikigusari” or “kusari”, being a length of rope, cord, wire or chain fastened at each end to a hard weight or hand grip;

2. For the purposes of this Schedule, a weapon is an antique if it was manufactured more than 100 years before the date of any offence alleged to have been committed in respect of that weapon under subsection (1) of the said section 141 or section 50(2) or (3) of the Customs and Excise Management Act 1979(1)(improper importation).

Source: http://www.legislation.gov.uk/uksi/1988/2019/schedule/paragraph/1/made


Explanatory Note(This note is not part of the Order)
Section 141 of the Criminal Justice Act 1988 provides that any person who manufactures, sells or hires or offers for sale or hire, exposes or has in his possession for the purpose of sale or hire, or lends or gives to any other person, a weapon to which that section applies shall be guilty of an offence and liable on summary conviction to imprisonment for a term not exceeding six months or to a fine not exceeding level 5 on the standard scale or both. The importation of any such weapon is prohibited.
There are defences under the section in respect of weapons which are made available to a museum or gallery or used for cultural, artistic or educational purposes if lent or hired from a museum or gallery, and in respect of weapons used for the purposes of the Crown or of a visiting force as defined in subsection (6) of that section.
This Order specifies descriptions of weapons to which section 141 of the Criminal Justice Act 1988 applies. Antique weapons, which are defined as weapons over 100 years old at the time of an alleged offence, are excluded.
By virtue of article 1 the Order comes into force two months after it is made.

Source: http://www.legislation.gov.uk/uksi/1988/2019/note/made


I have heard that this act is not retrospective. Though that means crap, legal advise is best for that. This act seems to focus on the sale/providing of blades.

section 1 (9) of PACE 1984 says:
In this Part of this Act “offensive weapon” means any article—
(a)made or adapted for use for causing injury to persons; or
(b)intended by the person having it with him for such use by him or by some other person.

some knives such as flick, butterfly, disguised are illegal period. A weapon becomes 'offensive' with intent. And also if one carries it in public with no lawful excuse. I.E. tradesman, sikh, etc.

As far as i can tell, it isn't illegal to own a private collection of items not prohibited. Yet, i'm fairly certain, in fact i know, that if someone has prior form, they will be prosecuted. Letting the courts decide.

warmest wishes

Wayne


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Re: "Private" Collections

Post  Ade on Thu Sep 06, 2012 1:26 pm

That's useful Wayne,thanks mate.It is the items listed in s141 that i was referring to,but i couldn't remember the correct section number Rolling Eyes
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Re: "Private" Collections

Post  Chris on Fri Sep 07, 2012 1:51 am

It's a great question Ade, not off topic at all mate.

Wayne has already posted most of the relevant material to sift through. Good stuff.

Bottom line the main bullet points are.

- An offensive weapon is anything which is made for, modified for or intended for use as a weapon.

- As Wayne notes, certain specific items are called out as being inherently offensive weapons. So there is no discussion.. if you have these items in a publis area then you are guilty of possession of an offensive weapon.

- Location is key for offensive weaons. You generally can't carry or be in possession of an item considered an offensive weapon in a public place. That practically means anywhere outside of your own home.

- There is no specific prohibition against personal collections in your own home for edged and blunt "weapons". Your issue will be how do you actually get them to your home without you or the courier breaking the law. Wink

- Firearms are a different kettle of fish altogether. There ARE numerous additional prohibitions regarding firearms as we know. Here we are talking about blunt and edged items which may be considered offensive weapons.

Just as a side note guys, most importantly there has been a change in sentencing guidelines around bladed and pointed articles. The case of Povey and its subsequent impact on sentencing guidelines means that if you are found in public in possession of a bladed or pointed article that you have no justification for possessing (note they aren't even bothering to refer to offensive weapons in sentencing) then starting point for sentencing is much more likely to be a few months behind bars. The courts are taking possession of bladed and pointed articles VERY seriously at the moment. They don't even have to be sharp, you can have a rounded and dull article but if it's a blade that is rounded and dull then the rules are the same.

The British Criminal Justice System really really does not like the public walking around with this stuff.
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Re: "Private" Collections

Post  Ade on Fri Sep 07, 2012 2:30 pm

Chris wrote:.

- There is no specific prohibition against personal collections in your own home for edged and blunt "weapons". Your issue will be how do you actually get them to your home without you or the courier breaking the law. Wink

That's what i thought,thanks for clarifying.


Chris wrote:
Just as a side note guys, most importantly there has been a change in sentencing guidelines around bladed and pointed articles. The case of Povey and its subsequent impact on sentencing guidelines means that if you are found in public in possession of a bladed or pointed article that you have no justification for possessing (note they aren't even bothering to refer to offensive weapons in sentencing) then starting point for sentencing is much more likely to be a few months behind bars. The courts are taking possession of bladed and pointed articles VERY seriously at the moment. They don't even have to be sharp, you can have a rounded and dull article but if it's a blade that is rounded and dull then the rules are the same.

The British Criminal Justice System really really does not like the public walking around with this stuff.

Chris,has the change in guidelines had any effect on the carry of s139 compliant bladed articles?
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Re: "Private" Collections

Post  Chris on Sun Sep 09, 2012 10:32 am

Chris,has the change in guidelines had any effect on the carry of s139 compliant bladed articles?

Good question Ade, the basis of the offences remains the same. What was illegal before the change in guidelines remains illegal now. The Povey guidelines generally mean that the custody threshold is more likely to be reached when caught carrying a bladed or pointed article.

If it wasn't illegal before hand, it's not illegal now. If it is illegal you may find yourself facing custody.
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