Is it a requirement

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Is it a requirement

Post  RichardZ on Tue May 01, 2012 11:01 am

OK,

First off, I do not know where to have this thread, here goes;

Is it a requirement that someone should be a trained martial artists, i.e. black belt in order to teach self defense?

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Re: Is it a requirement

Post  Mr Nobody on Tue May 01, 2012 4:10 pm

No. But you should be well versed technically in what you are teaching. You should be able to relate it to all kinds of people. It helps to have some kind of real world experience and you should be willing to adapt when necessary.

You also need to know how to teach avoidance, enviromental awareness, de-escalation, pre contact indicators, dealing with legal issues etc etc.
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Re: Is it a requirement

Post  David Turton on Tue May 01, 2012 5:35 pm

My association has a self-defence instructors award scheme for non black belts if you think that may be something you fancy

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Re: Is it a requirement

Post  RichardZ on Tue May 01, 2012 7:38 pm

It is not of my fancy to seek out a special org.


This was a subject of debate I have been into with other martial artists over the past decades

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Re: Is it a requirement

Post  GOVINDA on Wed May 02, 2012 6:48 am

Not a requirement but I would imagine it helps, if only to gauge how well you know the subject, art that you are teaching....you shouldn't need to have one purely to justify others opinions though.....people tend to laugh up their sleeve or bitch no matter how well qualified one is....
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Re: Is it a requirement

Post  RichardZ on Wed May 02, 2012 11:40 am

I can't keep a count how mny times I had conversations with black belters/martial artists whom believe that they have the "exclusive knowledge" to teach self defense

I can't keep a count how mny times I went to seminars of those black belters/martial artists only to discover how little to they know about self defense.


Last edited by RichardZ on Tue May 08, 2012 8:59 pm; edited 1 time in total

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Re: Is it a requirement

Post  David Turton on Wed May 02, 2012 12:12 pm

Mmmm I sense some real animosity my friend

I for one have never claimed 'exclusive knowledge' only that I have studied the realistic aspects of the martial arts for 52 years.

I dont believe I have all of the answers but I do believe I have at least asked all the right questions.

I set up the Self-Defence Federation (SDF) many years ago and the All-Styles Martial Arts Association (ASMAA) just a couple of years ago

The SDF only studies, practises and teaches self-defence and self-protection as opposed to ASMAA which (as the name should imply) is dedicated to the furtherence of all the martial arts

Not knowing your real name I dont know if we have met, trained or what, or if you have ever been on any of our seminars .. I cannot comment honestly on others., only the ones I have been privelaged to have worked with over the years

some great, some good, some downright awful, however unlike your self I can keep count... my diaries do so for me

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Re: Is it a requirement

Post  RichardZ on Wed May 02, 2012 1:01 pm

David Turton wrote:Mmmm I sense some real animosity my friend

I for one have never claimed 'exclusive knowledge' only that I have studied the realistic aspects of the martial arts for 52 years.

I dont believe I have all of the answers but I do believe I have at least asked all the right questions.

I set up the Self-Defence Federation (SDF) many years ago and the All-Styles Martial Arts Association (ASMAA) just a couple of years ago

The SDF only studies, practises and teaches self-defence and self-protection as opposed to ASMAA which (as the name should imply) is dedicated to the furtherence of all the martial arts

Not knowing your real name I dont know if we have met, trained or what, or if you have ever been on any of our seminars .. I cannot comment honestly on others., only the ones I have been privelaged to have worked with over the years

some great, some good, some downright awful, however unlike your self I can keep count... my diaries do so for me

regards

Oh. By no means, I was not directing my post to you, nor your experience, nor any org you represent

I was speaking in terms of general/common martial art/artists

I tried to log on with my real name, but the system gave me errors. I even tried using my actual first letter of my last name, but received a error on that as well. My real name is Richard, but I do not desire to post my entire name on open forum.

Because I have been so controversial in the past decades, I rather be more anonymous

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Re: Is it a requirement

Post  stubedo1 on Wed May 02, 2012 1:27 pm

Hello all,

In my opinion it depends on how you view the term self defence.

You could have advice from a police officer who would perhaps advise avoidance of getting into a situation, as their job is to minimise all confrontations. Or the other extreame right though to the pre-emptive strike option.

Richard, what is your definition of self defence?

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Re: Is it a requirement

Post  RichardZ on Wed May 02, 2012 6:24 pm

stubedo1 wrote:Hello all,

In my opinion it depends on how you view the term self defence.

You could have advice from a police officer who would perhaps advise avoidance of getting into a situation, as their job is to minimise all confrontations. Or the other extreame right though to the pre-emptive strike option.

Richard, what is your definition of self defence?

I do not have a definition, other than a dictionary.

That said, self defense is about "prevention"

Simply- by awareness and/or physical methods, you are preventing from getting seriously harmed. (You cannot prevent a situation from happening all of the time, you just try to prevent from getting harmed)

Training in ALL aspects of self defense, is like getting multi-coverage insurance.

This insurance is a "in-case" something happens, not really to keep it from happening. (This latter not to be confused with the "prevention-per trying to not get seriously harmed")

You either get "thorough" coverage, or face consequences.

I often find it strange how people will keep ahead of their "regular insurance", but not take a serous approach to their "self defense insurance"




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Re: Is it a requirement

Post  David Turton on Thu May 03, 2012 1:41 am

in order to provide some type of 'clarity', but just really for our own purposes we segregate these terms

Personal Safety ... the knowledge and steps you take to stay safe..i.e. general awareness and preparation.. should be NON physical in most ways

Self-Protection ... Steps you take when some form of 'danger' signals have been accepted .. such as crossing the road if you see a gang, leaving a pub thats looking like something might 'kick off' ... these are usually semi physical, such as really just moving or even preparing yourself with an expedient weapon if matters look incerasingly dangerous

Self-Defence .. these are the actual physical moves you are now compelled to make.. from the 'Fence & Guard' through to actual 'fighting' with all aspects in between

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Re: Is it a requirement

Post  RichardZ on Thu May 03, 2012 2:43 pm

Yes. We are on "the same page"

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Re: Is it a requirement

Post  GOVINDA on Fri May 04, 2012 12:42 am

I tend not to use the term Self defense at all these days, to be defending is to be on the back foot, any clink in the physiological armour is to be avoided imo !

Self Protection encompasses all my descriptions of what I now teach.....
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Re: Is it a requirement

Post  David Turton on Fri May 04, 2012 12:50 am

Fair enough Govinda, a very amateur poll I did a year or so ago implied that 'Joe Public' more or less understood the term 'self-defence' as something physical to save them in a violent attack
whereby the term 'self-protection' (to them) implied something to do with 'security'

the poll was amongst NON martial artists by the way, and just as a very (very very) small idea amongst local people.
although I can see that using self-protection as an overall term is probably more correct

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Re: Is it a requirement

Post  GOVINDA on Fri May 04, 2012 2:55 am

Cheers Dave, I see your point also.
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Re: Is it a requirement

Post  RichardZ on Fri May 04, 2012 7:16 pm

Therefore, if I had a sign that reads Self Protection Classes, will not seem as strong as Self Defense Classes?

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Re: Is it a requirement

Post  David Turton on Sat May 05, 2012 1:09 am

so it seems... (sarcasm not withstanding)

its just that most members of Joe public that we asked considered that the martial arts and self-defence were one and the same thing, even though we dont consider that, and that self-protection was 'something else' that they thought had to do with fitting locks on doors and carrying personal alarms etc... ???

Not my thoughts and not arbitary in any way, just an interesting retrun from about 100 members of joe public, so hardly indicitive of anything really.

the use of the term 'self-protection' is more or less a modern thing in the martial arts world, prior to that schools, and instructors would usually use 'self-defence' in their ads etc.

I guess that they considered (overall) that SD was their techniques, whereas SP became more popular when other aspects than techniques only were added to the actual teachings

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Re: Is it a requirement

Post  RichardZ on Sat May 05, 2012 11:08 pm

Looking upon the grand works of Marc MacYoung, Gavin de Becker, Kelly McCann, Geoff Thompson, Dave Grossman (please name your references upon a reply post);

Long ago, before many of these surfaced, in scant numbers, there were older books and authors (please name your references upon a reply post);

Whom were using their knowledge of Personal Safety, Self-Protection, Self-Defense apart from being actual martial art instructors.

I remember in the 60's-70's, Joe Public thought in order to learn this, one had to go to a martial art instructor

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Re: Is it a requirement

Post  David Turton on Sun May 06, 2012 12:27 am

Interesting list ... maybe you know or not that in fact I was one of several people who TAUGHT Geoff Thomson for several years. I used to travel monthly down to his clubs for several years teaching Geoff and his students and in fact graded Geoff in my system.

Not really sure what you are after Richard, but I have just over 120 books on the 'martial arts' that ONLY mention the martial arts for self-defence.. the list would take me ages. The rest of my 1000 plus collection are magazines from the late 1890's.

I certainly never said that many instructors didnt TEACH other aspects, merely that we started this particular discussion regarding the TERMS not the techniques of self-defence/self-protection

Eric Dominy had a series of books on 'self-defence' using Judo/Ju-Jutsu
Bruce Tegner also only used 'Self-Defence' in his books on that subject even devising his own 'term' "Jukado" (Ju-Jutsu, Karate & Aikido blended for a combined Self-Defence style)

In my 1901 Health & Strength Magazines (the whole year) every instructor such as Professort Vigny from Savate, Percy Gerruty, and many more only used the term self-defence.

There are many books on self-defence using illustrations whether photos or drawings that simply show someone in a suit or a dress using whatever the art the author is skilled in.

Indeed I taught 'applied' methods that were bespoke for certain 'industries' in the late 1960's early 1970's to Doormen, Taxi Drivers.... I segregated the lessons THEN into
The Three Lines of Defence ....
Basically the list of "Personal Safety" ... "Self-Protection", and "Self-Defence" that I listed in an earlier post, but not using those terms.

you are correct that most members of the 'public' did indeed that self-defence and the martial arts were one and the same.

dont forget also that many 'terms' have been used to denote the 'self-defence' aspects of the martial arts..'unarmed combat', 'Defendo', and for many years even 'Boxing' was known as "The Noble Art of Self-Defence"...

Changes that happen internally in the martial arts, such as SD v SP can take a hell of a long time to become used in the everyday language of Joe Public, who frankly dont NEED to know the dfferences in their daily lives UNTIL they feel the need to learn.

No-one we interviewed said they ever considered taking up 'self-protection' but ALL either said they had thought about taking up 'self-defence' or would only use THAT term and werent 100% sure what 'self-protection' meant.

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Re: Is it a requirement

Post  RichardZ on Sun May 06, 2012 10:45 am

David Turton wrote: Interesting list ... maybe you know or not that in fact I was one of several people who TAUGHT Geoff Thomson for several years. I used to travel monthly down to his clubs for several years teaching Geoff and his students and in fact graded Geoff in my system.
I did not know this. That said, it would seem that Geoff had received more fame or recognition than you-no offense


David Turton wrote: Not really sure what you are after Richard, but I have just over 120 books on the 'martial arts' that ONLY mention the martial arts for self-defence.. the list would take me ages. The rest of my 1000 plus collection are magazines from the late 1890's.
I was looking to see who may have books in a collection that I do not have. Narrow it down-Pick ten of your favorites


David Turton wrote: I certainly never said that many instructors didnt TEACH other aspects, merely that we started this particular discussion regarding the TERMS not the techniques of self-defence/self-protection
I didn’t say you said anything. My earlier post was directed to anyone in particular. I made a generalize statement, especially of my past experiences-observations.


David Turton wrote: Eric Dominy had a series of books on 'self-defence' using Judo/Ju-Jutsu

Bruce Tegner also only used 'Self-Defence' in his books on that subject even devising his own 'term' "Jukado" (Ju-Jutsu, Karate & Aikido blended for a combined Self-Defence style)
Per Eric Dominy, as some others, it would seem that they focused more upon their art, in this case, Judo, then the many other aspects of “protection”

I had collected Tegner’s entire series of books, which at that time, there weren’t any iconic book stores or the internet. Simply, we ordered books from a public library. And if it weren’t for the small library having one of Tegner’s books, I could have not ordered his other publications way back then. Lately, I had been ridiculed my other martial artists for even owning those.

One such book which a librarian ordered for their stock was “Protect Yourself”, by Robert G. Barthol. This was a book that I checked out and it became long overdue. The librarian told me to simply “pay for it”. At that time, I thought that book was on a much different path (like nowadays) about defense apart from martial artists merely writing defense books based upon their martial art.



David Turton wrote: In my 1901 Health & Strength Magazines (the whole year) every instructor such as Professort Vigny from Savate, Percy Gerruty, and many more only used the term self-defence.
Self defense is a vague term. As I had stated, most of the books written in the earlier decades, were martial artists using their martial art as a reference for defense. They really did not study, write, or teach the other aspects.


David Turton wrote: There are many books on self-defence using illustrations whether photos or drawings that simply show someone in a suit or a dress using whatever the art the author is skilled in.
Per my above.


David Turton wrote: Indeed I taught 'applied' methods that were bespoke for certain 'industries' in the late 1960's early 1970's to Doormen, Taxi Drivers.... I segregated the lessons THEN into
The Three Lines of Defence ....
Basically the list of "Personal Safety" ... "Self-Protection", and "Self-Defence" that I listed in an earlier post, but not using those terms.
What terms did you use?


David Turton wrote: you are correct that most members of the 'public' did indeed that self-defence and the martial arts were one and the same.
It is this “under educated” mindset, that Joe Public also have of martial arts in general. After I had studied Judo (which at that time, boys were interested in boxing for learning to fight), I was fortunate to have a (now well-known) Karate school nearby. Halfway through this, the fellas I have known to be in boxing, started to practice Judo. Judo then stated to become very popular. (Judo wasn’t popular or even a spoken household name when I left.) When I told them and Joe Public, I was studying Karate, they kept making references (in some innuendo or pun) to it calling it Judo.


David Turton wrote: dont forget also that many 'terms' have been used to denote the 'self-defence' aspects of the martial arts..'unarmed combat', 'Defendo', and for many years even 'Boxing' was known as "The Noble Art of Self-Defence"...
Per above, boxing was considered by many as a prime defense study. In the 50’s, the gyms were packed. Gym owners literally picked out who they wanted to coach. When I went to apply at some boxing gyms, it was like the Nazi’s selecting males from a stock of young boys. The gym owners-coaches were biased or had prejudices. One of the reasons why I became more interested in Judo, way back then.


David Turton wrote: Changes that happen internally in the martial arts, such as SD v SP can take a hell of a long time to become used in the everyday language of Joe Public, who frankly dont NEED to know the dfferences in their daily lives UNTIL they feel the need to learn.
I agree. It is up to those qualified, to help educate Joe Public



David Turton wrote: No-one we interviewed said they ever considered taking up 'self-protection' but ALL either said they had thought about taking up 'self-defence' or would only use THAT term and werent 100% sure what 'self-protection' meant.
As I had somewhat stated earlier, Joe Public is under educated on the subject. Part of this is the many myths and off-beat history, associated subjects, and projections that many martial artists were holding onto, thus creating more confusion to Joe Public. In other words, many martial artists were not helping the situation

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