question about conditioning for the street

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Re: question about conditioning for the street

Post  David Turton on Fri May 04, 2012 12:55 am

you need much more than mere 'skill' ... skill is just ONE aspect of any combat training.
Aggressions (all of them). power transference. speed, physical abilities are more are also vital aspects, and mere skill only shows a knowledge of any martial art, it doesnt show how they can APPLY that art

a great number of 'forms' competitors show fantastic skill/s, but I wouldnt want them on my my side in a real go.
on the other hand a Rugby Player with aggress and DESIRE to survive a violent attack would be a bloody handful

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Re: question about conditioning for the street

Post  Mr Nobody on Fri May 04, 2012 2:09 am

Dave,

In my experiences with subduing violent people while working in the Police, I have to say I totally agree with you. The intent and desire to fight on by people who have far less skill than me can be quite astonishing.
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Re: question about conditioning for the street

Post  GOVINDA on Fri May 04, 2012 2:52 am

Of course Dave is right, he may have a tad more experience than some ffs,


I've seen it manifested in a bar, basically a girl, no more than 8 stone took revenge on a bloke who was meant to have touched her up in another club in Belfast, he was a big dude, but not big enough to catch a four pound glass ash tray with his hands rather than his face though, blood everywhere, and a few good boots in the head to follow, violence and aggression always win, no matter how big you are.
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Re: question about conditioning for the street

Post  Ace Ventura on Fri May 04, 2012 2:56 am

I'd agree with Dave as well.

There could be lots of debate about wording here

"Skill" are we talking about the skill of martial arts, years of honing the body to perfection and being able to jab the eyelashes off of a gnat or the skill of a bloke who knows just when to shove a glass in your face after distracting you?

Jamie O'Keefe says "anyone can do anyone, you just need to find a way" or something like that?
So a greatly skilled martial artist could easily be killed if I run them over in my car or burn their house down. Desire over skill.

Rory Miller also talks about fighting minds. You rarely have to physically shut someone down completely as the mind, or will, goes beore the capacity of the person to fight back. Will before skill.

Terry O'neil said someting like "it is easy to teach someone the physical side of fighting, but getting them to turn on and do it is another matter", sounds like will before skill to me.

Maybe "skill" and "desire" need to be defined by each side of this argument so we know we are talking about the same thing?

In my experience, mental trumps physical.......

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Re: question about conditioning for the street

Post  Mr Nobody on Fri May 04, 2012 5:19 pm

Ace Ventura wrote: being able to jab the eyelashes off of a gnat .......

Man!

That would be a great party trick! Imagine the girls you'd pull after showing them that!

Very Happy

Good post as well though Ace.
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Re: question about conditioning for the street

Post  RichardZ on Fri May 04, 2012 7:20 pm

Therefore, if one has trained in many skills, wouldn't they avoid from being hit by a car?

If we are not honing our skills, then why train.

Heck, we should have the desire to win over our foes without training for any skill

If desire is what it takes, the training in martial arts is useless or poitnless

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Re: question about conditioning for the street

Post  Mr Nobody on Fri May 04, 2012 9:39 pm

I don't think anyone is saying that MA training is pointless at all as we oviously all love it

I do it to help ramp the odds in my favour.
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Re: question about conditioning for the street

Post  David Turton on Sat May 05, 2012 1:14 am

you train to hone your skills YES

you may not have the desire to defeat opponents with OR without training.

I once said (and PLEASE dont take this as another target)..

"Take a coward and train him hard and all you end up with is a skilled coward."

I am not nor ever will be anti-skills, but to believe that skills 'alone' will be enough in a real confrontation is short sighted

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Re: question about conditioning for the street

Post  BN on Sat May 05, 2012 1:40 pm

"Desire" isn't the be all and end all.

I think we as martial artists always seem to be looking for AN answer.

It's either THIS.

or...

It's THAT.

I don't believe it works that way.

Desire is the main factor, until it isn't.
Skill is the main factor, until it isn't.

All attributes are important, but every situation is different, and what carried the day that time, may fail miserably this time.

I don't believe that we can make absolute statements.
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Re: question about conditioning for the street

Post  BN on Sat May 05, 2012 1:41 pm

As a veteran of hundreds of streetfights, I feel that I still don't know it all.
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Re: question about conditioning for the street

Post  RichardZ on Sat May 05, 2012 10:22 pm

BN wrote:As a veteran of hundreds of streetfights, I feel that I still don't know it all.

Same here.

But "desire" may not be the proper word used.

That said, we cannot leave out skill against those whom have these intentions.

Therefore, saying those who wish to harm another have the upperhand, it is up to those who can obtain the skill to thwart these intentions

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Re: question about conditioning for the street

Post  David Turton on Sun May 06, 2012 12:39 am

I sense a slight change of tack here Richard
NO ONE certainly ne ME has said SKILL isnt a vital aspect of defednign yourself, of course it is, but as you seemed to have implied (and apologies if I read it wrong), that ONLY skill is necessary.

since this debate started I have asked many of my 'peers' about what they consider the main components or aspects required. Skill always came no higher than 3rd or 4th in their lists

One former (and quite recently former) World Champion Competitor in 'musical forms' told me unequivecably (sp?) that although he had trained for 20 plus years and won european Gold medals and several silver & bronze medals in the world championships that he would be 'shitting' himself if he had to fight and would probably 'fold' under the mental pressure of that situation....
his 'skill' base was only in musical forms, not anything else. He had never 'sparred' or entered competitions other than forms competitions.

he admitted openly that he was completely unprepared both mentally and physically for street confrontations.

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Re: question about conditioning for the street

Post  RichardZ on Sun May 06, 2012 12:31 pm

It was I, who were thinking from other posts, there was a implication that "desire", for lack of a better word/term was "only" needed.

It was appearing to me, that "skill" was not needed.

To suggest a form competitor has defense-fighting skill is like saying a ballet dance competitor has defense-fighting skill because they have skill per balance and can kick.

We are talking about as it was put, a "skill base"

When I speak of skill, I speak of skill studied and applied to defense-fighting.

When I speak of skill such of this, great skill should overcome mere "desire", which shall we call this "intention" or something else?

Indeed, I have seen many with "intention" and along with this, they had their own "skill sets"

I am not ruling out "desire"/"intention", I am including with strong emphasis, skill (proper skill base) can over come


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Re: question about conditioning for the street

Post  Nick Hughes on Sun May 06, 2012 3:43 pm

My take on this, having tried to narrow it down years ago, is that we need 3 things to prevail in a street fight. You need technique (aka skill), you need tactics, and you need mind-set. (The SAS interestingly came up with the same thing but they include kit because obviously they're primarily concerned about waging war with weapons.)

The analogy I use, and others on here have heard it before, is police officers dealing with an armed robbery.

First cop arrives, is a great shot (ie. highly skilled), stands in the middle of the parking lot and gets blown away. (lack of tactics)

2nd cop arrives; also skilled and trained in officer survival knows he must take cover behind something solid. When he pops up to take his shot he finds himself confronted, for the first time ever, with a live target and can't bring himself to pull the trigger. (lack of mindset)

3rd cop arrives; good tactics, good mindset. Takes cover wants to kill bad guy but shoots himself in the foot drawing his weapon, shoots his partner, lights off the car, pigeons on the roof and a little old lady at the bus stop. (lack of skill)

Only the 4th cop, who has an abundance of all three can possibly prevail.

Now, are there situations where people who didn't use tactics prevailed as in the bad guy missing the first cop and the cop winning. Yep. Many live examples I'm aware of and that is where luck factors in. He got "lucky" he wasn't hit...skill wasn't involved.

To wade into your debate a little deeper. Assuming two guys are equally skilled, of equal size, and have the same tactics the one that wants it more is going to win. If they're both equally skilled and equally desirous of winning, then the bigger one will win it and so on.

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Re: question about conditioning for the street

Post  RichardZ on Sun May 06, 2012 4:19 pm

Now, I totally agree and loved that post.

This is exactly what is on my mind/agenda.

In short, one has to prepare in all aspects.

Also, look at it this way;

When MMA arrived, there were grapplers (and not the stand up grabbing an taking a opponent down or take down) who started to use the phrase;

"Most fights end up on the ground"

This was a method to "toot their horn", in order to suggest their "superiority" over all other martial arts.

In the first bouts of MMA based fights, striking opponents did not have a chance to the take down and submission opponents. The strikers did not train and lost sight of an important aspect in martial arts versatility

It soon came to rise, that the strikers started to learn take down and submission, as well as submission opponents learning to strike better, and thus many MMA nowadays are won from strikes.


From my past decades of experiences and many observations, in street brawls or outside pubs, there wasn't enough time to go to the ground or some type of submission. Fights ended as quickly as they started. Indeed someone occasionally went to the ground after being struck so hard with or without a object.

To reiterate, all aspects, or versatility is a must in real defense

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Re: question about conditioning for the street

Post  GOVINDA on Sun May 06, 2012 4:59 pm

The above posts seem to be concerning dueling, tbh I have never seen a lot of that, well only in some SD/SP classes where you practice such silly things to the extreme, or maybe you guys have just been lucky and have never been flanked, attacked from the rear, ambushed, sober Very Happy .... just an observation affraid
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Re: question about conditioning for the street

Post  RichardZ on Sun May 06, 2012 5:16 pm

Above posts?

I liked the cop analogy.

Flanked, attacked from the rear, ambushed, girl friend taken hostage for a short time, yeah, been there....

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