Edged Weapons

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Edged Weapons

Post  Chris on Fri Nov 18, 2011 2:58 am

Hi all,

There's a wealth of material out there purporting to be the good news on knife and other edged weapon defence.

Who here has undertaken specific edged weapon training?
Who has been in an altercation where edged weapons were present?
Was anything that you had previously trained relevant or useful in an altercation where edged weapons were present?
What did you learn about edged weapons from personal experience?

I've got my own list of answers but I'm really interested to hear from others before I waffle on.

Cheers
Chris
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Re: Edged Weapons

Post  Nick Hughes on Fri Nov 18, 2011 3:56 pm

Who here has undertaken specific edged weapon training?

Yep...H2H, FMA, Aikido, Ju-jutsu and Karate. Most of the Japanese stuff was defensive in nature with the exception of Zen Do Kai and some work with the bokken in Aikido. The FMA and H2H were more complete systems in that they dealt with both offense and defense.

Who has been in an altercation where edged weapons were present?

Yep...and that includes screwdrivers (not the drink) and broken bottles and glasses.

Was anything that you had previously trained relevant or useful in an altercation where edged weapons were present?

Hmmm...tough one to answer. In so much as to awareness of them, what they could do, learning how to strike effectively and reflexes, timing etc then a resounding YES!!! As to specifically he will attack this way and you will do this...not so much.

What did you learn about edged weapons from personal experience?

That you almost never see them, especially if the person isn't using it as an intimidation factor (in which case he'll be brandishing it about) and that you usually don't feel them. (feels like being punched which, under the effects of adrenalin, is almost non-existent). That they are a formidable equalizer. That they're dangerous as all get out (more so than guns). That sticks are actually more effective but harder to carry on you.
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Re: Edged Weapons

Post  David Turton on Sat Nov 19, 2011 3:55 am

typical Nick.. he has said most of the stuff I was going to Oh Well .. (Cheers Nick)

his points are spot on and the only addition I have is that my hand has a large scar from a broken (Newcastle Brown) bottle which was lunged towrds my face...

plain instinctive reactions from self-preservation saved me, with 10% from the training....

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Re: Edged Weapons

Post  Ade on Sat Nov 19, 2011 2:29 pm

I've done some defensive knife work under SDF/Taishindo...which was to the point and very relevant,i felt.

I've done a fair bit of offensive knife,mostly snippets gleaned here and there and then drilled.

the thing that sunk in most was to take edged weapons VERY seriously,and not to take any chances.

I've been at risk from a blade twice.The first time was dealt with using a kitchen table;and the second,a directly issued threat,was dealt with pre-emptively using a car.

What did you learn about edged weapons from personal experience?

I've been "around" situations involving edged weapons a few times over the years,and i pretty much echo everything that Nick said on this part,other than being stabbed...i've managed to avoid that(been cut with glass once or twice though)
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Re: Edged Weapons

Post  Wayne Harrison on Sun Nov 20, 2011 6:05 am

Chris wrote:Who here has undertaken specific edged weapon training?

'Formal training, as in classes/courses, just a little.


Chris wrote:Who has been in an altercation where edged weapons were present?


yep, Smile.

Chris wrote:Was anything that you had previously trained relevant or useful in an altercation where edged weapons were present?

No way. seemed to be a completely different world.

Chris wrote:What did you learn about edged weapons from personal experience?


That i needed to have the mentality to deal with this. A knife being used against you is a terrifying thing. Likewise, using a knife in aggression ( i done that also, and paid the price legally) gives the 'knife-person' a feeling of the upper-hand. Naturally sure. If you in some way to negate this, it is a severe blow psychologically to the 'knife-person'. This can be a major step in dealing with the whole incident.

I agree with Nick. With clothing on there might not be any blood, the contact feels very much like a punch.

Had many less experiences with guns toward me. I'd take a gun in very close proximity rather than a knife any day. 'Line of fire' for a gun is one direction. For a knife is a much wider arc.

VERY useful also - never take an item out to use as a weapon unless you are 100% willing to use it. Less it is took of you and used on you.

Nick what do you mean sticks are more effective? In defence against knives?

warmest wishes
Wayne
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Re: Edged Weapons

Post  Nick Hughes on Sun Nov 20, 2011 1:27 pm

I've done force on force training where we give half the class knives and half the class sticks. I've never seen the knife beat the stick yet.

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Re: Edged Weapons

Post  Wayne Harrison on Sun Nov 20, 2011 1:39 pm

Nick Hughes wrote:I've done force on force training where we give half the class knives and half the class sticks. I've never seen the knife beat the stick yet.

Nick

ahh, no probs. Makes perfect sense, providing the knife person doesn't get in close enough. Would it not depend on who was using the stick?

i'd an altercation with a group in N. Ireland one had a baseball bat. Luckily for me i had a carving knife. My arm was broke the first swing. I was able to get in close as soon as that happened. Their bat was usless, imo, my arm was a decent sacrifice to negate the bats use.

No real bearing on what you've said, or indeed your quality training. The group i was against only get their mindset from being in a big gang anyhow. So they're pretty useless in ways. I mean, i'd likely go against them all day long rather than onbe of your students once, Smile

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Re: Edged Weapons

Post  Socrates on Tue Nov 22, 2011 3:23 am

I'm going to answer your questions, but in a different order:

Who has been in an altercation where edged weapons were present?

Yes. I taught English in Madrid for a few years in the early 90s. There was a recession at the time and it was the tail-end of a heroin epidemic. I look very British (blond and pale) and wasn't very street-wise, so I was an easy target. I got mugged about three times by junkies brandishing knives.

A friend of mine at the time had grown up on a rough council estate and was a recovering football hooligan. He taught me about awareness and never letting strangers into my personal space and I never got mugged by a stranger again.

However, in my last weekend in Madrid, I came back to my flat late at night. My flatmate was there with some mates and his girlfriend. Two of them were tripping on acid and drinking whiskey - a bad combination. They were getting lairy and sarcastic and one of them asked if I had been paid yet. Eventually, they all left. My flatmate went round his girlfriend's and the guys who were tripping went to score some coke.

About half an hour later, the buzzer went. I answered it. The two guys who were tripping told me they had lost their keys. I let them back in and they robbed me with hunting knives. In retrospect, letting them in was a mistake as my gut was telling me to pretend to be asleep. If I had a Maglite in my hands when I opened the door, they would have probably bottled the robbery anyway.

After taking my cash, the two BGs freaked out that I would grass them up and argued about whether to kill me or not. I persuaded them not to. They left and I immediately moved out to a friend's house. The next day, I called all their mates and killed their social life.

What did you learn about edged weapons from personal experience?

If someone wants to rob you, they will get into your personal space and brandish the knife about to scare you. If you are switched on and don't let them get close, they will try to find someone else. Also, keep a bloody big Maglite next to your bed and don't open the door late at night.

Who here has undertaken specific edged weapon training?

I moved back to Madrid a few years later and felt very paranoid. This was when I took up martial arts. Since then, I have worked on a few disarms. I have also done a little kali and would love to explore stick vs knife a bit more.

Was anything that you had previously trained relevant or useful in an altercation where edged weapons were present?

In my experience, the most important things to work on are awareness, avoidance, trusting your gut feelings and not letting anyone into your personal space. Maybe add in some stick vs knife work and some disarms.
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Re: Edged Weapons

Post  Socrates on Tue Nov 22, 2011 6:30 am

I would also like to add that doing any kind of hard physical training helps build up your self-confidence, which is absolutely essential in preventing attacks, at least for members of the public.

Also, I forgot to mention that practicing martial arts every single day made the paranoia go away...
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Re: Edged Weapons

Post  combatnige on Tue Nov 22, 2011 6:43 am

I have done knife training with Dave Turton, and with my other instructors too.

The more I train the more aware I am becoming, not that i was naive or anything like that before.

way I see it if I am confronted with a knife I have 3 basic choices

1. capitulate and give them what they want, money watch jewelry etc and hope they dont try and stab/cut/slash (delete as appropriate) anyway.
2. run like hell yelling fire (people tend to stop and look when they hear that) and hope my Usain Bolt impression does the trick and he doesnt catch me and stab/cut/slash as above or
3. do the opposite of what they have demanded, ie crash the line, take the knife on my terms not theirs, ruin their distance/timing and mentally prepare to take the 'hit' when the knife makes contact (which it will).

anyone else reading this might have another alternative, or action ect. to do but these are whats imbedded into my mind.

Nige

ps I have never been confronted by a knife so a fourth choice might reveal itself if that day ever comes, however thats my two penneth - for now Very Happy

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Re: Edged Weapons

Post  GOVINDA on Tue Nov 22, 2011 3:23 pm

Who here has undertaken specific edged weapon training?
Yep, Aikido, Karate, Krav, JuJitsu.

Who has been in an altercation where edged weapons were present?
Yep, ran like fcuk.

Was anything that you had previously trained relevant or useful in an altercation where edged weapons were present?
Nope, totally useless.

What did you learn about edged weapons from personal experience?
That unless I have actually been in that situation for real, all the training in the world from the above mentioned Arts will get me killed, I do train in knife fighting and try to replicate as many different scenarios as possible, we go at it big time, no holds barred, but I personally feel unless its someone like your angry wife or partner, or someone acutely retarded, none of the knife work drills will be of any use in said attack, chances are, if its someone who knows what they are doing you wont know until you feel the blade, if indeed you do, so all I will rely on is my core combative instinct to get me to a better position, go for the head at every chance and hope I last a couple of litres Crying or Very sad
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Re: Edged Weapons

Post  RichardZ on Tue May 01, 2012 11:31 am

Who here has undertaken specific edged weapon training?
Yes. Multiple martial arts.

Who has been in an altercation where edged weapons were present?
Yes. Had recieved some cuts and a stabbing. Face it, if you dont get cut at least once, you haven't met a more fierce opponent.


Was anything that you had previously trained relevant or useful in an altercation where edged weapons were present?
How to parry


What did you learn about edged weapons from personal experience?
That training does not even come close. I dislike training with fake edged weapons. (I.E. Rubber Knives)

About 30+ years ago, one of my instructors used a jumbo red marker as a knife and had us go at each other trying to mark. You'd be surprised how much of the "calculated defenses" are thrown out the window in lu of trying any contorted method to keep from getting marked. Which was the same as symbolizing getting cut.

And the marker had shown what were mild slices to what could have been deep-servere sliced and stabs.

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Re: Edged Weapons

Post  Paul Crawte on Wed Jan 30, 2013 3:10 pm

Hi all - here's my tuppence worth on this older subject..

Who here has undertaken specific edged weapon training? - Yes in several arts and Steve Timperley's Knife and Edged Weapons Awareness Program(KEWAP) training. I undertook the latter as I was (and am) increasingly concerned at the knife defence training my TKD school is offering. To be fair, it's pretty similar to the knife drills I have encountered in other arts.

Who has been in an altercation where edged weapons were present? - Yes, two, although prior to any serious training. The first I just backed off very quickly and got the hell out of there. In the 2nd leaving wasn't really an option, as I was responsible for a youth club and the would be 'attacker' wanted someone inside the club - and I was in the way. The police had already been called. I talked him down.

Was anything that you had previously trained relevant or useful in an altercation where edged weapons were present? - No, as I hadn't undertaken any serious training. However for the 2nd incident I have, for some time, considered how I would react now. I'd probably try and talk him down but, rather than stick it out as I did on that occasion, I'd probably have decked him when his guard was down. I'm not really sure any more. What I did worked at the time, but in retrospect it was a huge gamble.

What did you learn about edged weapons from personal experience?
- I think both incidents showed me that if some one wants to stab me they are unlikely to start talking to me. The presentation of a blade also raise the game significantly. With the KEWAP training session it became very clear, through the use of a Shokk knife, that stripping a knife off someone isn't likely to happen and that the best defence - other than leaving - involves keeping out of the way. Where practitioners found the knife wielder moving in it turned into a sort of "all or nothing" scenario - where the only successful defenders were those who took some degree of (instinctive and probably lucky) control of the knife arm and / or belted the knife wielder bloomin' hard in the head a fair few times and then got away. The attacker was as likely to get stabbed when the two closed into to a grapple / scuffle and if they both fell to the floor chaos reigned supreme (mostly).

Tricky, as knife defence training is interesting, but I fear the false sense of security it might offer for some who don't think it through.

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Re: Edged Weapons

Post  combatnige on Thu Feb 07, 2013 6:47 am

Paul Crawte wrote:Hi all - here's my tuppence worth on this older subject..

Who here has undertaken specific edged weapon training? - Yes in several arts and Steve Timperley's Knife and Edged Weapons Awareness Program(KEWAP) training. I undertook the latter as I was (and am) increasingly concerned at the knife defence training my TKD school is offering. To be fair, it's pretty similar to the knife drills I have encountered in other arts.

Am hoping to train with Steve in a couple weeks at my instructors place way oop north


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Re: Edged Weapons

Post  Paul Crawte on Sat May 25, 2013 4:38 pm

CombatNige - sorry for the delay... I hope your time with KEWAP and Mr Timperly went (or goes) well. He's a quietly convincing bloke!

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Re: Edged Weapons

Post  combatnige on Wed May 29, 2013 3:26 am

Hi Paul, alas no I wanst able to make it that time, but he comes over to my instructors place several times a year, so am hoping to get on one of his course at some stage

the other kicker is my instructor is 2 1/2 hours away

Nige

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Re: Edged Weapons

Post  Paul Crawte on Wed May 29, 2013 4:06 pm

hmmm... that's a problem of being up North...

..It's grim..
Wink

Well, if you get to train with the man say "Hello" and remind him I donated to him his Ameridote patch.


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Re: Edged Weapons

Post  combatnige on Thu May 30, 2013 2:27 am

Dont worry mate I will

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