Ground work for self defence?

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Re: Ground work for self defence?

Post  theodore on Thu Dec 08, 2011 4:39 am

What is the bottle top technique Mr N?

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Re: Ground work for self defence?

Post  Dave on Thu Dec 08, 2011 10:47 am

theodore wrote:What is the bottle top technique Mr N?

Thanks for the info Mr N, But can you shed more light on what the Bottle top handcuff technique involves? scratch
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Re: Ground work for self defence?

Post  Mr Nobody on Thu Dec 08, 2011 2:59 pm

Guys,

I'll try and find a clip for the bottletop technique as it's hard to explain....but I'll try anway.

- You need to get one cuff on one of the offenders wrists first otherwise you can't do it.
- Should the person resist, pull the hand holding the chain link and free cuff towards your body
- The other hand, palm only and fingers spread, should be on top of the cuff that is secured on the offenders wrist.
- Push your palm downwards onto the cuff and then push it towards the offenders elbow so that one hand is pulling the handcuffs and the other hand is pushing the cuffed side
- Due to the nerves in the wrist and the hard metal nature of handcuffs, this results in tremendous pain in the offenders wrist and it becomes quite easy to pull the person to the ground...the more they resist the more pain they will be in and it bloody well hurts!
- I know you're probably thinking how can a pain compliance technique on a wrist be any good but we all did it at college and the pain was so intense you don't want to resist it! I still have a scar from it.

I hope this helps.

Chris,

The shredder can be a fight finisher but I've only used it in its "passive"variation in order to gain the upper hand, put the person under my control and then apply cuffs or a physical restraint. It certainly took the fight out of one guy very quickly though as I overwhelmed him and had him on his back in about 2 seconds.

I agree that one of it's advantages is that it is great for confusing your opponent and, as such, can be fantastic for setting up chokes or hard, unreadable strikes.

I think the full shredder, with the eye popping and ear ripping etc, may be a fight finisher but then Dimitri has always said that strikes and holds etc are part of the shred anyway as it's a concept and not technique based.

So it becomes philosophical then...is the shredder a fight finisher or is it a useful tool to set up a fight finishing move or are they all but one and the same?

Generally speaking my mind set when using it was to let the person know if he wanted to fight, I would fight him in return and I was going to be damn brutal about it.

Then I wanted him under control so that we could handcuff him. That is always the end result for Police when dealing with a violent ofender. You do not do the shredder, in law enforcement, just to give the guy a beating and walk away. You use it to get him under control, or as self defence, in order to restrain him and get him to jail.

I hope this helps.
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Re: Ground work for self defence?

Post  Dave on Fri Dec 09, 2011 1:53 pm

Thanks Mr N, I get it now, the name comes from the actual movement performed with the cuffs, similar to the bottle top leverage. I can visualise it working with rigid cuffs such as quick cuffs. But I'm having trouble visualising it working with chain link cuffs. Regarding the shredder, I like to work it (especially the eyes and nose)when training grappling, especially to set up reversals and sweeps.
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Re: Ground work for self defence?

Post  Mr Nobody on Mon Dec 12, 2011 1:51 pm

Dave,

The chain link cuffs work just fine mate as it's the part around the wrist that puts on all the pressure.

I too find the shredder to be very useful in grappling as well as for setting up bigger shots etc.
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Re: Ground work for self defence?

Post  Ronin Mick on Wed Dec 21, 2011 8:52 am

Gentlemen and Scholars,

My limited grappling abilities are rooted in submission wrestling. A couple basic takedowns, a couple basic throws, a handful of chokes, submissions, and locks. The Jun Fan Gung Fu stuff's heavy focus on trapping and striking left me with moderate ground fighting skills.

I've never been too keen on the idea of tackling somebody on the street and having their friends Riverdance on my head.

Some of you guys mentioned focusing on getting back to the feet as quick as possible.

Do you recommend what if typically heard called a technical stand-up in BJJ or CSW?

Do you have other suggestions for mitigating threats and getting up after a bum's rush or tackle?

Cheers,


Mick

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Re: Ground work for self defence?

Post  David Turton on Mon Dec 26, 2011 2:06 am

one of the methods we use in our system is the 'Body Climb' works well in most cases (not all obviously)

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Re: Ground work for self defence?

Post  Wayne Harrison on Mon Dec 26, 2011 8:53 am

Dave, this is using the attackers body and/or clothing to get up?

I use that. simultaneously to move to the side or a little behind the attacker i am working with. I dnt like using this approach whilst stayng in front of the attacker on the way up if i can help it.

Trying to get out of the 'kill zone' is as important to me as getting up - as soon as i begin to climb that is.

Applicable to single & multiple attacks. Which is what a concept/technique must do for me.

warmest wishes
Wayne
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Re: Ground work for self defence?

Post  David Turton on Tue Dec 27, 2011 1:51 am

not easy to describe in words, but basically grab the nearest pair of legs aropund the knee level and use the clothing to pull yourself up as close to him as you can whilt regaining your feet, as soon as you are in a 'sprint starter's' position push like shit and run the guy backwards.. this moves ouu away from the rest and also takes him out of the fight.

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Re: Ground work for self defence?

Post  Wayne Harrison on Wed Dec 28, 2011 9:53 am

David Turton wrote:not easy to describe in words, but basically grab the nearest pair of legs aropund the knee level and use the clothing to pull yourself up as close to him as you can whilt regaining your feet, as soon as you are in a 'sprint starter's' position push like shit and run the guy backwards.. this moves ouu away from the rest and also takes him out of the fight.

Thanks Dave. What is the process if the attacker in question is heavier than the victim. And is unable to push? I take it just move to the side in the clothing grab?

Cheers

Wayne
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Re: Ground work for self defence?

Post  David Turton on Wed Dec 28, 2011 1:04 pm

it doesnt matter as you are pushing them backwards, and because you are hold of their legs they cant stabalise... I have done it with up to 22 stones men and it works a treat

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Re: Ground work for self defence?

Post  Wayne Harrison on Thu Dec 29, 2011 4:16 pm

thanks Dave. I appreciate the info, Smile
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Re: Ground work for self defence?

Post  lotar on Thu Feb 09, 2012 12:19 pm

Couple of points... firstly the Shredder is great for close situations whether on the ground or standing, I think theres a lot of jealousy regarding Senshido on here. again not from everyone.

Secondly I think a lot reality people are basically lazy in their training and look for the fast option... not all , but most I've met... a BJJ blue belt would be able to control someone with no ground experience quite easily.

Not having a go at reality training, but I believe you have to train to high standards in various systems to make you an all round fighter...

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Re: Ground work for self defence?

Post  David Turton on Fri Feb 10, 2012 1:42 am

Hi
I am a 'fan of both Richard and Senshido, and the Shredder is a useful 'tool', but the Shredder will not work in the situations we are discussing here. If three of four guys are STANDING and you are on the FLOOR, then you can't easily 'shred' .. but some of the other Senshido methods would apply very well.
If you are being kicked by a couple or more guys you need to get up QUICKLY, and the 'nearest weapon to the nearest target' principle that we teach as part of our self-defence is the best one to apply here, and the nearest targets will be their legs, and your nearest weapons will be your hands to their legs


Last edited by David Turton on Fri Feb 10, 2012 4:50 am; edited 1 time in total

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Re: Ground work for self defence?

Post  Chris on Fri Feb 10, 2012 3:43 am

Shredder is great. Top notch concept when applied the correct way gives a massive advantage in extreme close quarters.

I think Richard Dimitri would say himself that it is part of what he teaches, not all. A very important part no doubt because it fills a gap that exists in the vast majority of training but he certainly doesn't advocate the Shredder as a one size fits all solution.

I have see the Senshido DVD's on dealing with multiple opponents (bit old now I suppose and Dimitri has no doubt developed further) and they were excellent. Good, common sense and realistic advice.

I don't think anyone is "jealous" of the shredder. I think some BJJ guys in the states give it a hard time but that's probably a combination of not having experienced it first hand and having a great deal of pride in being part of the "cool" gang of BJJ students and not wanting to listen when someone says that there may be a gap in their training. Just for the record, I have trained with Royce Gracie and Richard Dimitri and I am absolutely sure that they would get along like a house on fire!

Can't beat training. If you have some good guys with gloves on beating the snot out of you and you try something that doesn't come off then you know it's not for you.

Me personally I have found that you have three main situations if you are on the ground facing multiple attackers.

- You are on the ground and they are standing
- You are on the ground and they are on the ground
- You are on the ground and one of them are on the ground grappling with you and others are standing.

If you are on the ground and they are standing, pick a guy, latch on to him, put weight into him and run him.
If you are on the ground and they are on the ground, scramble to your feet before they can. It's a race to be standing. You may bounce off someone or use someone as a climbing frame or you may have to transition to space and then up.
If you are on the ground with a guy and he has mates looking to turn your head into a flat screen TV then you are really in the shit. All he has to do is hold you long enough for his mates to kick you to bits. As a result, you may well"shred" him to create space (you may also use a JJ tactical disengage) whatever floats your boat to get you to an upright posture. Then you grab a body (proxmity stifles power) and climb up them in the same way as mentioned above.

cheers

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Re: Ground work for self defence?

Post  RichardZ on Tue May 01, 2012 11:16 am

Dave wrote:What do you need to realistically train for regarding fighting on the floor when training for self defence?

Train on different types of surfaces.

Somehow, methods take upon a different manner when the surfcae is different

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