Learn the combat system taught to Israeli counter-terrorism

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Re: Learn the combat system taught to Israeli counter-terrorism

Post  Nick Hughes on Mon Oct 10, 2011 11:15 pm

I disagree it's a better base to start from. My clients are afraid of violent situations and being mugged etc but they're wise enough to know they have to take dealing with that into their own hands.

There is a very gradual process to get people up to that level who have zero exposure to violence growing up.

I'm not going to be very happy going to the "I'm afraid of spiders class" if they're training method is to throw a bucket of tarantulas on me."

As for it not being feasible because thugs just go out and do it. Gangsters over here typically don't go to the range and train in how to shoot either...they do drive bys and spray bullets all over the place.

Regular civilians on the other hand go to the shooting schools, play with airsoft and sim rounds and train at the range and prevail against the tough guys all the time.

I have pages of testimonials from students I've trained (without them ever going bare knuckles) who've beaten the crap out of skid marks who've tried to mess with them. Some of them have even been on here with their stories (read the one about my mate's sister who was responsible for catching a serial rapist who woke her up in her apartment with a knife to her neck).

Nick
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Re: Learn the combat system taught to Israeli counter-terrorism

Post  Zak on Tue Oct 11, 2011 3:47 am

Hi rezbi,

just to clarify a few points. I am aware that you said you would not be posting again so won't go into too much detail although if you would like to reply by all means PM me. I'm not trying to 'get the last word in'.

Look, Zak, and anyone else, I didn't want to put that info in, but you asked for it.

I think it's fair to say that you were only 'asked' as the result of you offering your opinion earlier in the thread. Had you not posted at all you would not have been asked to elaborate. With respect, it wasn't reluctantly dragged out of you, you were quite quick to post an 'it's rubbish' post but failed to say why- surely it was obvious you would be asked?

As for lying, how do yuo get to that conclusion. Lying is saying something knowing it's not true.

I didn't actually accuse you of lying, I just said that stating that you 'think' something based on your own suspicion in that way with little or no basis could be considered close to lying.

The excuse Yanilov gave for me not being good enough was rubbish. The fact is, he wasn't even watching me train as there were a ton of people in the room.

This could certainly reflect on his lack of ability as an instructor but it's unfair to assume the other things you did based on that. Could I ask, had he judged your ability favourably even though there were 'a ton of people in the room' would you have still doubted the validity of his decision?

[/quote]As for KM, you want me to tell you in a forum post what I think is bad about it. That's like asking me to explain a one year course in five minutes. It doesn't work that way.

Every KM/Kapap etc thread I've ever witnessed on here has turned into a massive thread of for and against in which people 'attempt' to 'explain' and 'justify' their opinion and as you rightly say, it's not always easy via this medium but if we are to have any input at all is it not better that at least we try?

[/quote]I just think KM is inefficient.[quote]

Me too but people asked you 'why' and you didn't address KM at all you simply aired your personal grievance against him. A grievance which may or may not be valid but as neither you nor I really know either way, maybe this forum is not an appropriate place to vent such an opinion?

Take care,

Zak

Very Happy

p.s my apologies for the slightly wierd 'quote-unquote' thing at the end of this post. I seem to have put myself in quotes instead and as I'm an utter bafoon when it comes to all things computer I can't rectify it. ha ha.


Last edited by Zak on Tue Oct 11, 2011 5:02 am; edited 2 times in total

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Re: Learn the combat system taught to Israeli counter-terrorism

Post  Zak on Tue Oct 11, 2011 3:49 am

tonyk wrote:
Zak wrote:
Hi Tony,

I would say, quite the contrary, I would suggest they are viewed by their hosts to be at a level which reflects the fact that they are about to become 'instructors'.

Zak

Very Happy

Hi Zak,

The reason I commented was due to the drill being similar to ones we did in Systema,It was mainly to teach beginners to get used to a bit of rough handling and to build awareness.



Hi Tony,

I don't disagree that they looked like beginners but I can only assume they are deemed to be 'suitable' candidates for 'Instructor' so maybe they shouldn't look like beginners during such an easy drill?

Take care,

Zak


Very Happy

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Re: Learn the combat system taught to Israeli counter-terrorism

Post  Zak on Tue Oct 11, 2011 4:56 am

Nick Hughes wrote:Yep...have to agree...there's nothing wrong with those drills.

Somebody who's never been in a fight comes to me to learn what to do and you're honestly suggesting I follow the Russian bare knuckle method and throw them in to a bare knuckle brawl. What exactly do they need me for? Where's the transition to get them to that level? They can walk into a pub, spit in someone's beer and get that sort of "training" for free.

That's like saying get someone who wants to learn to fly, take them up in a plane, I give them the joystick, and, as I parachute out the door, say "good luck."

That's asinine. I learned to fly and before I got near the aircraft I had to learn aerodynamics, meteorology, radio procedure, etc and then there were hours on the tarmac learning how the controls worked, how to inspect the plane, fuel it and a myriad of other skills to master before I finally soloed.

Nick


Hi Nick,


maybe you could offer your commentary on the benefits of those drills and how they apply to the SD arena? As far as I can see they are a great cardio workout if you can suffer the bruises but aside this I don't really see any combatives benefit. Push ups and getting punched aside, I can't identify the need to 'drill' runnning somewhat aimlessly from one pad to the next delivering a few blows and moving on. What foreseeable senario does this relate to? A room of passive attackers with no limbs? I'd run off. There is no 'incoming' fire at all and even the 'pressure' is all very staged wouldn't you agree? Being closely surrounded by pad holders who are posing no immediate threat on any level isn't reflective of the pressure of the fight reality.

Surely the best way to 'drill' for the live senario is to replicate the live senario as accurately as possible with the relevant safety contingencies put in place? As you say, bare knuckle boxing is totally innapropriate and indeed for many it would be counter-productive. That said a drill which in no way reflects the point of the training is equally as redundant surely?

The basic benefit of delivering strikes to a shield could equally be gotten from a single, static pad holder without all the unecessary running to and fro. Remove David Arama's slaps and punches and the linked drills would make a great 'lively' corporate team building exercise and an interesting cardio workout but as far as RBSD 'drill' goes, they fall well short of the objective.

Just a quick thought on your airplane analogy. As much as I agree that bare knuckle boxing is not the best way to go, comparing learning to fly a plane to becoming profcient in fighting is a little like comparing a melon to a rhino. We all have an inate ability to fight, however un skillfull we may be. The aim of such 'training' is to hone, tune and refine that which is natural to some degree. Aviation is something utterly unknown and therefore must be learned from scratch. Two humans devoid of any fight 'training' at all will have the ability and capability to fight each other at least to some degree however the same cannot be said of the ability to fly a plane. I do agree that there should be a progressive path to 'all out' pressure drills but I also believe that from these drills should reflect the objective in some way from the onset.

Take care,

Zak


Very Happy



Take good care,

Zak


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Re: Learn the combat system taught to Israeli counter-terrorism

Post  tonyk on Tue Oct 11, 2011 7:59 am

Zak wrote:
tonyk wrote:
Zak wrote:
Hi Tony,

I would say, quite the contrary, I would suggest they are viewed by their hosts to be at a level which reflects the fact that they are about to become 'instructors'.

Zak

Very Happy

Hi Zak,

The reason I commented was due to the drill being similar to ones we did in Systema,It was mainly to teach beginners to get used to a bit of rough handling and to build awareness.



Hi Tony,

I don't disagree that they looked like beginners but I can only assume they are deemed to be 'suitable' candidates for 'Instructor' so maybe they shouldn't look like beginners during such an easy drill?

Take care,

Zak


Very Happy


I would have thought anyone under scrutiny of becoming an instructor would have tried to get every detail right including doing a proper press up!

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Re: Learn the combat system taught to Israeli counter-terrorism

Post  Nick Hughes on Tue Oct 11, 2011 9:27 pm

Zak,

Some of the people who come to me for training have never been in a fight in their lives. Just walking into a room full of strangers, dealing with people yelling and being asked to hit anything is terrifying for them.

I've actually had people cry when we've done scenarios where all the other guy doing is yelling at you. Not kidding.

Not everyone comes from (and I think it was you who made the point but apologize if it wasn't) the same place and care must be taken not to give people too much to soon as it has a counterproductive effect i.e. they quit instead of learn.

I didn't watch the second drill in its entirety...the first one is good for the reasons mentioned above...to inure newbs into standing inside a group of people being pushed and shoved, throwing techniques they've never thrown, and for cardio.

It wouldn't be the only drill I'd have them working on by any means and I'm sure it's not the only ones the guys in that school, or on that course do.

My mate Hock made the point one day it's easy being critical when you watch one small piece of someone's total program or a still photo showing one moment frozen in time. What really counts is are they producing results? I.e. Are they turning out students who can deal with conflict?

I take your point about the flying analogy but can replace it with others if you like.

Nick
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Re: Learn the combat system taught to Israeli counter-terrorism

Post  GOVINDA on Wed Oct 12, 2011 2:08 am

We could probably anoligise all day but that won't make any difference when it comes to defending yourself, imo if people start crying during training then they have no right being there, I really don't know how peoples ideas of self defense can differ, for me growing up in a working class inviroment where fighting was the only way to get by, be it in school or in the work place, wrapping people up in cotton wool doesnt cut the mustard, I spent two years at KM and never got to spar anything like "live" once, people from reality systems like boxing for instance would come about twice, same for your average joe from the street, so the main stay were upper class twats and people like me who stuck at it due to a misguided loyalty to an instructor or maybe it was my love of line dancing, which in reality is what it is........



Ps , its just my opinion and I am by no means bad mouthing the system, and I believe if it were taught with some gusto and real world reality it would be ok........for now its McDojo or going by those clips, LSD breakdancing.
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Re: Learn the combat system taught to Israeli counter-terrorism

Post  Ade on Wed Oct 12, 2011 3:09 am

GOVINDA wrote:imo if people start crying during training then they have no right being there.

Surely those are the people who need to be in training the most?
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Re: Learn the combat system taught to Israeli counter-terrorism

Post  GOVINDA on Wed Oct 12, 2011 3:48 am

Ade wrote:
GOVINDA wrote:imo if people start crying during training then they have no right being there.

Surely those are the people who need to be in training the most?


I think not, for me it comes down to honesty Ade, obviously it depends why they are sobbing, if it because of the cardio well thats different, I'm talking about the ones afraid of confrontation, afraid to the point where no matter how they train and how many pads they hit when it comes to the crunch they crumble, if we are to train these people then honesty is where its at, its gloves off time, ok so maybe no bare knuckle but even slapping would do, put them where its uncomfortable, even a small taste of a smack in the teeth............I bet the class empties at this point, no takers me thinks..........I know people who are "instructors" in stuff like km who have never been punched in the face I mean WTF ? they paid their money for the weeks training, have their combat trousers etc but have no real world experience, lots of folk like this have filtered their way through courses, avoid these people.................who do you want at your back at 2 am in the morning on the way home from the club, when 2 or 3 arseholes approach for a chat, its a personal choice I'm sure, but honestly who ?
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Re: Learn the combat system taught to Israeli counter-terrorism

Post  tonyk on Wed Oct 12, 2011 6:14 am

Ade wrote:
GOVINDA wrote:imo if people start crying during training then they have no right being there.

Surely those are the people who need to be in training the most?


I wouldn't go as far as saying they have no right to be there but with their psychological problems its debatable if they are ready to learn physical skills.Lets be honest,unless you are a small child its not normal to burst into tears when someone shouts at you,especially if you are a man.

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Re: Learn the combat system taught to Israeli counter-terrorism

Post  Chris on Wed Oct 12, 2011 6:20 am

It's not about anyone else but the individual Gov. Doesn't matter who I would want watching my back (personally I'd settle for Steven Seagal, Chuck Norris and Optimus Prime) it's about the individual and their development and the journey.

If you have someone who is completely terrified of confrontation and you take them from that point to being someone who has the tools to at least understand and POSSIBLY manage an encounter whether that be at the risk/threat stage or through to conflict management then you have a success. You have made that person more of a hard target and you have given them some tools to use. They aren't going to be natural born killers but you have increased their ability to cope. Not something to be sneezed at.

You can't throw those people in at the deep end. You have to be more intelligent and structured in your approach. In the same way that any teacher develops their student through exposure to the right information at the right times. If we look at this purely from a physical perspective you don't ask the guy who has no experience of running to take part in a marathon. You move him along at the right pace, develop him with the right training programme and when he is ready he will be prepared for the marathon. He may never be as quick as the majority of marathon runners. He may be the slowest marathon runner recorded but he is still doing something that the majority will never achieve or attempt.

You can't just jettison the guys who don't have the physical or emotional makeup to throw down in a full on fight when they start training. Your job as a coach or instructor is to build on their desire to learn and find a way to develop them correctly and in accordance with their individuality. If you don't, you break them and these are people who need you the most. Saying that they are going to crack when the time comes is not a reflection on them, it's just basic truth. The vast majority of people are cannon fodder for natural born killers. That doesn't mean their future is set, they can bite down and get the job done but you have to show them how and give them the skills and confidence to do so. As long as their trainer understands the end goal then all is good.

Bearing in mind that the vast majority of conflict we may face in today's world is emminently dealable with the right risk/threat/conflict management tools. We don't have to be killers, we just have to be willing and cognisant. Not unaware, unwilling and sleepwalking through life.
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Re: Learn the combat system taught to Israeli counter-terrorism

Post  GOVINDA on Wed Oct 12, 2011 6:50 am

Good points made by my learned friends Very Happy I totally disagree though, I'm of the opinion, either you have it or you dont, would you say for instance where boys are made into men, (Military) the staff nurture them and bring them on slowly and at their own pace, I think not, you either have it or its beat into you, if you cry you drop out or get kicked out............................this kind of training doesn't happen in km or other Mil based arts that promise street cred and draw similarities to Israeli Special Forces, just my opinion though. Please........ no more anoligies !
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Re: Learn the combat system taught to Israeli counter-terrorism

Post  Nick Hughes on Wed Oct 12, 2011 8:07 am

Govinda,

Not so re the military mate. Do they bring them on faster than I do with my students? Yes, because they have a never ending supply of young recruits waiting to fill the slot of the guy who quit but, and it's a huge but...

They do NOT start off by doing what they end up doing. Basic training in the French Foreign Legion and the US Marine Corp is 4 months. The march at the end of basic to earn the right to wear the Kepi is 150 kilometers over three days. (about 35 miles a day) We sure as hell didn't start by marching 35 miles a day the first day in to see who had it. No military does.

Swords do not come already sharpened and the correct shape...they are made that way from raw material and tempering over time...and I've taken those students of mine and they've worked the doors and security after they've reached a certain level and they do just fine.

Nick
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Re: Learn the combat system taught to Israeli counter-terrorism

Post  GOVINDA on Wed Oct 12, 2011 8:37 am

I'm confused, I'll put it down to the fact we live in different worlds and must have vastly different experiences, great discussion though,





Gov.
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Re: Learn the combat system taught to Israeli counter-terrorism

Post  tonyk on Wed Oct 12, 2011 1:05 pm

GOVINDA wrote:Good points made by my learned friends Very Happy I totally disagree though, I'm of the opinion, either you have it or you dont, would you say for instance where boys are made into men, (Military) the staff nurture them and bring them on slowly and at their own pace, I think not, you either have it or its beat into you, if you cry you drop out or get kicked out............................this kind of training doesn't happen in km or other Mil based arts that promise street cred and draw similarities to Israeli Special Forces, just my opinion though. Please........ no more anoligies !

Maybe something along these lines?

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Mr7soJ4UzHU

At 5 minutes into the clip you will see the selection fight.When my instructor was in Russia he witnessed one of these selection tests.It was very tough and the fight went on for around 15 minutes with no proper rest.These guys do it because they know it is a meal ticket out of poverty.If they get into Spetsnaz,survive a few years service they might get a job as a bodyguard for a wealthy businessman.But lets say your candidate is a fat sixteen year old kid who has been transported to school everyday in his mummies Range Rover.Will he really have the desire or incentive to fight like this?



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Re: Learn the combat system taught to Israeli counter-terrorism

Post  GOVINDA on Wed Oct 12, 2011 1:35 pm

tonyk wrote:
GOVINDA wrote:Good points made by my learned friends Very Happy I totally disagree though, I'm of the opinion, either you have it or you dont, would you say for instance where boys are made into men, (Military) the staff nurture them and bring them on slowly and at their own pace, I think not, you either have it or its beat into you, if you cry you drop out or get kicked out............................this kind of training doesn't happen in km or other Mil based arts that promise street cred and draw similarities to Israeli Special Forces, just my opinion though. Please........ no more anoligies !

Maybe something along these lines?

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Mr7soJ4UzHU

At 5 minutes into the clip you will see the selection fight.When my instructor was in Russia he witnessed one of these selection tests.It was very tough and the fight went on for around 15 minutes with no proper rest.These guys do it because they know it is a meal ticket out of poverty.If they get into Spetsnaz,survive a few years service they might get a job as a bodyguard for a wealthy businessman.But lets say your candidate is a fat sixteen year old kid who has been transported to school everyday in his mummies Range Rover.Will he really have the desire or incentive to fight like this?




Nail, hammer, head Tony or even P Company selection milling, which is done at the early stages of training etc etc, I could go on and on but everyone has their own version of reality, and after all we are mainly talking about the Kapap and krav........my main sore point was their drawn similarities to military.......of which I believe there is none.......apart from the combat pants........probably..
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Re: Learn the combat system taught to Israeli counter-terrorism

Post  Wayne Harrison on Wed Oct 12, 2011 3:54 pm

c'mon guys. place everything in context. i've only skimmed over some comments. ALL drills are not fro all drills. lets get real . for gods sake, haha,. all drill may not br a catch-all for everytyhing either. some may focus on something else more thasn another. i havn't lokked at david drills, but i but it's easyto pick out certain focus in indiviudal drills.

i would tentatively venture a guess, that someon who now how to create a training package from start to finish will understand many differenty stages of training drills. that have many differetn obkjectives. Niuck doesn't need the likes of me to verify his immense experiennce. but coomon sense says all things must be incremental.

i recently got negiatve opion ofr 12 min of the first few hours of an instrcutor course clips i put online. itdfuitile, and really unpfrofessional to make such judegments on the basis iof a few mins video fottage. unlews the toital subject matter & atmosphere is in those few mins. whichn is hardly likel;y to be true.

please excuse my typing. i am typing ion semi-dark, with 7 stella in me. you can tel i dont drink. i must log out beforte i get romantic.

P.S. gov. bollocks mate. if the people coming to us for training need the more effort and resources they are exacyl the kind that need to be trained. the more unfamilar/uncomfortabel they are with combat t6he more they shoukd be with me. am i looking an easy way out, with students alreay with the correct mindset? no. i actuall;y want to more 'vulnerable' studenths/ it's our job to help the one needing it most?

Maor's gave me permision ti use his backgroound. maybe you can go find out it if is correct or not before you use a carte blancge of foloks with combats. it is possibe, that some foolks really are what they say. but that is cheap bro, go find out, and get back here please. &
if you can bring some valuable critque re: Kapap and what david & maor can & do teach i will try to adress with them personally. i get the feeling i am pissing in the wind here slightly. i value a foum opinion, let;'s get things into perspective and get real.

i'd a disagreement with an famous.infamous firum member lately. in ciombat there are som unverisdal truths. ok. there ius also much mre personal perspective/experiience. hiughyl subje3ctive. there are so many variables in combat is it highly disabling to set aside training beracuse of the reason listed so far. i know it's 'worthwilhe' to trawl youtube to get some clips of david one may be abel to use. it is making ioll-informed rash jusdgements.

I welcome critique of maor & david. I need to ask again who you trasined with in kapap, and fror how long. i['m not attavking you, bnut being direct, Smile. I notice you say you trained for 40 yewars in ciombat. is that on & off, or solid? I view the former. So, can i asj you, when ytou say you train kapap who with, and fror how long? that you van mek a caerte blanche statement abotu other orgainstions?

much respect

Wayne
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Re: Learn the combat system taught to Israeli counter-terrorism

Post  GOVINDA on Thu Oct 13, 2011 2:02 am

Awesome post mate affraid
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Re: Learn the combat system taught to Israeli counter-terrorism

Post  Zak on Thu Oct 13, 2011 5:30 am



Hi Nick, Govinda, everyone,


I totally agree that EVERYONE has a right to join a class irrespective of their ability and/or mindset. If the only benefit is that an individual progresses to the point that they no longer burst into tears when screamed at then surely, for them, this would be a massive improvement and certainly of benefit. They may not be a 'super-bare-knuckle-ninja' but then they may never be a writer or a car mechanic either. We all have different strengths.

I also agree that drills should be progressive, beginning with very mild, or no pressure and developing and increasing as the student progresses. However, I still maintain that the drills should reflect the aim of the training in order that they be most productive. To draw on Chris' analogy of the marathon runner not beginning their training with 30k runs. Neither do they begin with low rep deadlifts or dumbbell curls and this was the point I was making when I said the drills should reflect reality and indeed the aim of the training. Prospective long distance runners would of course begin with short distances, relevant stretches and supplementary training to condition the relevant metabolic pathways etc etc. Whilst this may not actually be long distance running it is relevant to the aim in hand.

The above posted drills didn't seem to demonstrate any specific benefit to the overall aim. Low/no pressure drills can still be structured in order to include specific targets, presented according to the dynamics of a real fight and this would be far more productive than the aimless to-ing and fro-ing, delivering non-specific strikes to fague, generic targets. As such the above drills are devoid of any actual, practical application and are reduced to a CV workout.

Take care,

Zak

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Re: Learn the combat system taught to Israeli counter-terrorism

Post  tonyk on Thu Oct 13, 2011 5:51 am

CPP wrote

i'd a disagreement with an famous.infamous firum member lately.

So I noticed. Laughing Whilst he might not be the most diplomatic of individuals,and I am quite sure I got the same appraisal,or perhaps even worse,than yourself,I do feel his ideas shouldn't be thrown in the dustbin.What he says makes a lot of sense and his criticism of training that tries to teach people to run before they can even crawl is perfectly valid.If you examine anyone with a good reputation,and it crosses both styles and continents,you will find they had a very simple arsenal,usually no more than three techniques,which they had honed to perfection.Dennis Jones is the same,just a few simple strikes that have been drilled hundreds of thousands of time.I am quite sure you would have got the same appraisal off Dennis.In traditional martial arts you could throw away almost 95% of the material and be left with something that is useful.Combatives is fast becoming the same,a catalogue of techniques that lacks any basic fundamental principle.In other words,a car that has to pushed by its occupants as it hasn't got an engine to power it.

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Re: Learn the combat system taught to Israeli counter-terrorism

Post  Wayne Harrison on Thu Oct 13, 2011 6:46 am

tonyk wrote: CPP wrote

i'd a disagreement with an famous.infamous firum member lately.

So I noticed. Laughing Whilst he might not be the most diplomatic of individuals,and I am quite sure I got the same appraisal,or perhaps even worse,than yourself,I do feel his ideas shouldn't be thrown in the dustbin.What he says makes a lot of sense and his criticism of training that tries to teach people to run before they can even crawl is perfectly valid.

For sure. He has got tons of very valid stuff.

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Re: Learn the combat system taught to Israeli counter-terrorism

Post  rezbi on Thu Oct 13, 2011 11:14 am

Chris wrote:It's not about anyone else but the individual Gov. Doesn't matter who I would want watching my back (personally I'd settle for Steven Seagal, Chuck Norris and Optimus Prime)

You're kidding, right?

You really think you'd need Seagal and Optimus Prime with Chuck Norris there?

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Re: Learn the combat system taught to Israeli counter-terrorism

Post  GOVINDA on Thu Oct 13, 2011 12:16 pm

rezbi wrote:
Chris wrote:It's not about anyone else but the individual Gov. Doesn't matter who I would want watching my back (personally I'd settle for Steven Seagal, Chuck Norris and Optimus Prime)

You're kidding, right?

You really think you'd need Seagal and Optimus Prime with Chuck Norris there?


I think perhaps Chris was making a funny Rolling Eyes but you can't be serious Chuck Norris ? come on !! what about Stratham, Chuck sucks ass !
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Re: Learn the combat system taught to Israeli counter-terrorism

Post  Ade on Thu Oct 13, 2011 12:43 pm

Mr T pities Chuck Norris.
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Re: Learn the combat system taught to Israeli counter-terrorism

Post  Wayne Harrison on Thu Oct 13, 2011 2:01 pm

i'll 'see' your Mr T, and raise ya with a Rocky 3
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Re: Learn the combat system taught to Israeli counter-terrorism

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