judo chop

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judo chop

Post  GrapplingPeter on Sat Jan 08, 2011 11:27 am

Dear Dave! First of all, congrats to your new association. I would like to hear your take on the old "famed" judo chop! Did it really exist? Where did it come from? What was the purpose of it? Is it set to go to the side of the neck or on the back of the neck? Did it have the effect or is that just bollocks?

I hope you have some answers for me!

All the best to you and all your loved ones.

Cheers

GrapplingPeter from Sweden

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Re: judo chop

Post  David Turton on Mon Jan 10, 2011 2:10 am

the 'Judo Chop' was a journalist term for SHUTO or knife hand strike. thats all

in the original Kano Jiu-Do there were kicks, strikes etc as well as the 'grappling' sections

Judo went through several changes over the years, in its original form it was a type of Ju-Jutsu and consequently had plenty of strikes and kicks.

the old cinema series of the 1940's and 50's known as "Charlie Chan" regularly showed the 'chop' as a techniques (starred J. Carrol Naish)

nothing mysterious ... simply the Shuto Knife Hand strike to any vulnerable area.. it was done both backhanded and inwards

hope that helps and thanks for the kind words mate

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Re: judo chop

Post  GrapplingPeter on Wed Jan 12, 2011 11:39 am

Thanks Dave. Allways informative. I should have remembered that the real name was Shuto. If one look at most of the karate-styles and even Tae kwon do, the shuto is always included in the syllabus. Most Jiu-jitsu-styles also has it. But if I remember correctly, most styles use shuto as "driving thru" the opponent. When I posted, I was thinking on the old movies in the 30s and 40s and even 50s and 60s, where the shuto was used in a more snapping version to the side of the neck or the back of the neck. In karate and other styles, they offen try to go thru with force the side of the neck. Do you know if the snapping version was just used in the films or has it been used IRL and does it have that effect? I did try one time to do a snapping shuto to the back of the neck on a bloke, when i was 14 years, but it didnīt work as I thought it would (No effect, only some neckpain...) so hence my question.

Take care

Best regards

Peter

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Re: judo chop

Post  David Turton on Thu Jan 13, 2011 1:41 am

there was (still is actually, just not taught as much), a section in the old judo called Atemi-Waza... in that application the 'Chop' WAS taught as a snapping movement, but mainly because it was targeting 'nerve points' or Atemi-Points.

The snapping version isnt as effective as drive through, BUT can be useful in many ways.

When the original Ju-Jutsu practitioners like Tani and Ueynishi etc (Raku) came to Britain in the late 1800's offering challenges to anyone on the old musical hall stages, they found that they could be effective using 'chop' on BOXERS, but less so on WRESTLERS .. obviously neck training and development was the key factor here.

Kenshiro Abbe (the originator of the system I trained in for 20 years), ONLY used full follow through ....

Myself and my students who have used 'shuto' type strikes in reality have never tried 'snapping chops' so I cant comment, mainly because we trained for the most part in full follow through

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Re: judo chop

Post  cartmelpete on Thu Jan 13, 2011 6:48 am

Hi Dave,
Is it possible or have you seen/used the 'judo chop'/shuto delivered with the same mechanics as a slap? For example if you slap with the right hand then at the point of impact angle the bottom of the hand so your hitting with the bottom ridge.

Don't know if it's viable but this thread just got me thinking about it.

Thanks,
Pete

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Re: judo chop

Post  Ade on Thu Jan 13, 2011 7:31 am

Pete wouldn't that put the elbow in a very easy to injure position?

I just tried it on a pad and my elbow felt "vunerable" to say the least...

might be just me,my elbows are fairly beat up anyway Smile
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Re: judo chop

Post  cartmelpete on Thu Jan 13, 2011 8:26 am

Actually Ade, now that you mention it you're right. I never thought of it but should have.
Reason being a couple of years ago I was practicing power slaps on the heavy bag quite a lot, whilst generating plenty of oomph I must have been letting my elbow sag down too low and knackered it and it ended up getting pretty sore and painful.

O.k now but took quite a while to get back to normal and I still get twinges now and again whilst doing some dumbell excersises if I'm not careful.

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Re: judo chop

Post  Jagunco on Thu Jan 13, 2011 1:11 pm

this takes me way way back to my karate days. Why I ever listened to that lot telling me how best to do a Shuto is beyond me. I was young I guess.

The preferred technique was to do the shuto with the fingers spread as wide as possible. It wasn't really performed as a strike though but as a block and counter. This is years ago now like they might have changed their thinking,

Looking back you can sort of tell none of them reality experience. Oh well live and learn
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Re: judo chop

Post  Ace Ventura on Fri Jan 14, 2011 1:54 am

I am always amazed how people say 'that lot' when it comes to karate. There are as many different flavours as there are of self protection enthusiasts.

It is like me watching a video of KARRRRL and saying that is what all self protection instructors do.

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Re: judo chop

Post  GrapplingPeter on Thu Jan 20, 2011 10:27 am

Thank you all for your answers. I have always regarded the snapping shuto as not working.

Thanks everybody!

Cheers

Peter

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Re: judo chop

Post  BobW. on Mon Feb 27, 2012 5:14 pm

To the layman karate was always the "Judo chop"....... lol! The greatest exponent of the "chop" was the delectable Mrs. Peel from the 1960's series The Avengers. That hottie could drop the biggest and ugliest mutha with a well placed tap of the hand on the back of the worthy's neck. What a woman..... flower


http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=745cGs7T88U
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Re: judo chop

Post  David Turton on Mon Feb 27, 2012 5:41 pm

Ha Ha .. yeah .. my earliest memory of the 'Chop' was in the Saturday 'rush' pictures when I was about 9 or 10

Charlie Chan (played by J.Carroll Nash) used the 'chop' every episode.

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Re: judo chop

Post  BobW. on Mon Feb 27, 2012 5:47 pm

.......and didn't Mr. Chan have a "number one son?" Cool

Seriously, I still teach the judo chop/shuto/handsword as I believe its effective street wise and can be mastered in a very short time, maybe not to the back of the neck as per the glamerous Mrs. Peel, but throat, side of neck (carotid artery) etc.

Looking at some of the old close quarter combat stuff it was pretty much the weapon of choice. cheers

And never forget that Oddjob really gave James Bond a flogging with it .......
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Re: judo chop

Post  David Turton on Tue Feb 28, 2012 1:06 am

I still teach and advocate several ways of using 'Knife Hand strikes'
Inward, and especially back handed ... not one to neglect as avalid tool

and YES .. Chan did have a Number One Son ... blimey thats back to the late 1950's for me

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Re: judo chop

Post  RichardZ on Sun May 06, 2012 5:10 pm

Awesome thread taking me back.

I remember many non-martial artists calling my shuto either a Judo Chop or Karate Chop.

Hence the "action" looks like someone chopping.


Mrs Peel had some nice looking chops


The latest pun about the Judo Chop was in Austin Powers movies sequels

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