Miscellaneous Video Discussion

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Miscellaneous Video Discussion

Post  steve morris on Fri Apr 18, 2008 10:19 am

I'm not going to post here unless there's a real strong reason for it. Use this thread to post your stuff, talk amongst yourselves about your clips. Please keep it on topic, but other than that, do what you like.

Thanks.
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Re: Miscellaneous Video Discussion

Post  Guest on Fri Apr 18, 2008 10:26 am

A little clip of "makeshift" training done during breaks at work using whatever I can find. There's always a way to get a little training of some sort done. This is a tire toss that I do sometimes for time and sometimes for rounds or sometimes in addition to other odd object throws, pounds, lifts or carries/runs etc.

There was a part two but I had video problems since I do this stuff by myself (I don't have an actual video camera either). Maybe I'll get it posted tomorrow.

http://uk.youtube.com/watch?v=w7Y-rfzssbI

EDIT:

Here is part two:

http://au.youtube.com/watch?v=xcCRpLIeoaI


Tommy


Last edited by Tommy_P on Fri Apr 18, 2008 11:49 pm; edited 2 times in total

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Re: Miscellaneous Video Discussion

Post  Luciano Imoto on Fri Apr 18, 2008 2:21 pm

Tommy,
you yet know my praise about this tire throw drill Twisted Evil
I will try it too and in future send that "person throw" you indicate Wink
Keep moving to stay young: our motto!
Thanks for inspiration mate!
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Re: Miscellaneous Video Discussion

Post  Guest on Fri Apr 18, 2008 11:51 pm

The tire drill isn't anything new Luciano. It has been done before with medicine balls by many others. Sandbags too.


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Re: Miscellaneous Video Discussion

Post  Rob Mac on Sat Apr 19, 2008 5:29 am

Tyre, not tire...bloody yanks
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Re: Miscellaneous Video Discussion

Post  Rob Mac on Sat Apr 19, 2008 8:20 am

quie interesting... http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=mlleDPgmDVM&feature=related karate guy not doing to well with his anti-grappling skills karate guy beating a jiu-jitsu guy with ease... http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=LKPyO4sdfoo
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Re: Miscellaneous Video Discussion

Post  bob on Sat Apr 19, 2008 7:33 pm

Hi Rob,
In the first clip its interesting to see how upright the karateka is & how he has a shoulder/hip alignment, in other words he just couldnt sprawl from that position. Steve Morris pointed this out to me at Primal, a hard habit to break!
The second clip, well...... I doubt that the karateka in that cage trains in the way that your average karateka trains, yes there are always exceptions.
I was recently invited to train at a seminar with an Okinawan 10th Dan Karateka, these days I dont practice karate or wear a gi (uniform).
At the first break James Windsor & myself left the seminar, it was a complete waste of time & especially after experiencing a session at Primal.
I would say that a good 80% of the attendees were well out of condition, it struck me as a 'lets pretend to train'. The training was robotic, unimaginateive & more impotantly ineffective from my perspective.
At one level it was a worthwhile experience as it affirmed my view of most TMAs & before anyone jumps on my case as stated there are exceptions but I dont see too many.

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Re: Miscellaneous Video Discussion

Post  shoshinkanuk on Sun Apr 20, 2008 3:15 am

Ken,

be interested in which Sensei it was taking the training, by the way I agree that much karate is not presented or indeed trained in anything like an effective manner.
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Re: Miscellaneous Video Discussion

Post  bob on Sun Apr 20, 2008 3:29 am

Jim,
I'll pm you as I dont want this to look like Im slagging someone off, theres been enough of that!

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Re: Miscellaneous Video Discussion

Post  Rob Mac on Sun Apr 20, 2008 5:59 am

I didn't get time to explain fully my reason for posting this clip. I've said before how I'm getting more involved in my ground game and how so many people believe their anti-grappling skills will work if taken down, like a bjj player has got no idea what to do if someone sticks their thumb in his eye! I've said before that I wouln't particularly go for a taken...certainly not a shoot, but I'm certainly up for drilling sprawls, throws and ground defence. This guy, a black belt etc was just so arrogant, and upright my god someone stuck a pole up his arse! I don't no much about Karate but it never ceases to amaze me how useless many of these guys are.
The second clip posted was to show how Karate should be. Regardless of what Karate 'should be' or is does Karate not have the right to progress without people saying 'that's not Karate'. Look at old boxing/thai boxing clips both arts have changed dramatically without anyone saying 'thats not real boxing' or whatever. I come from a kick boxing and chinese boxing background but practice clinch work, throws, and now ground work whatever. Nobody says oh you're not practising real kick-boxing. Cheers Rob
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Re: Miscellaneous Video Discussion

Post  Guest on Sun Apr 20, 2008 6:19 am

Rob Mac wrote: ...does Karate not have the right to progress without people saying 'that's not Karate'. Look at old boxing/thai boxing clips both arts have changed dramatically without anyone saying 'thats not real boxing' or whatever.

Rob, if the karate folks would get their head straight there would be no problem. "Karate" as in karate principles or karate style fighting or someones own interpretation of it is all good and can be taken to new heights when you train it properly. But that is changing it and getting rid of some of the antiquated methods or the focus on art and such.

But "traditional" means just that; traditional. It's like buying a product. Do you want the new improved better smelling version or the traditional scent? If the traditionalists would realize that what they are practicing isn't really about fighting but about a host of extras and art and self discovery with a little bit of self defense then everyone would get along. If you want traditional you go to that school, if you're interested in "karate" rather than something like MMA or the like then find a progressive 'modern" karate school.....that's how it should be.

For me I have done my karate "my way." Tommy P's karate. But it was separate from my traditional side. I like my traditional to stay traditional. I like there to be a difference and when I see someone doing traditional karate I like to see it as such....more an art form based on an ancient Asian method. (with other elements). Anything else is my own thing. "But' even within that traditional side it had my own flavor still remaining within the framework of tradition.

Traditional karate and progressive karate training for fighting should be kept separate IMO. Keep a lasting record of how things were at another time in another culture...an art....a tradition. It shows where all of this began.

As a side note....for some reason I have lost all interest in traditional karate these days. It got boring and stagnant and redundant and...

Tommy

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Re: Miscellaneous Video Discussion

Post  Guest on Sun Apr 20, 2008 7:01 am

DaveCollins wrote: The one thing lacking to me in the first clip was any real attempt at anti-grappling. What I would like to see is a clip of some BJJ hero showing how good their skills are against multiple attackers...as in a normal streetfight....

I'm not sure BJJ claims to be a complete fighting system as such. It is only one component in an arsenal. The multiple attacker scenario can be said of Judo also. BJJ is basically old style judo anyway. In my short time training in BJJ they seemed more inclined toward sport anyway, rather than the street. I see it as a piece of the whole rather than the complete defensive package. I'm sure they do also.

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Re: Miscellaneous Video Discussion

Post  Rob Mac on Sun Apr 20, 2008 8:47 am

bjj players are exactly that 'players'. It's a game. If you never train with them however, you are missing out on part of your game. As a stand alone fighting art ... can't see it. I will always be a striker primarily, but when I see guys like that Karate guy it just re-affirms my desicion to start training ground work...even if it's just learning the basics. I saw a clip about a Karate guy (Ian Abernathy?) and he was rolling really well and has obviously trained hard at his floor game. Sensible guy, still keeps alot of his trad stuff but looks like a well rounded fighter. I would put pound to penny that he would punch you right in the nose rather than take you down, but he has obviously incorporated a good level of Jiu Jitsu into his fighting.

Tommy, guess I just can't see your point mate. Trad staying trad etc. I go back to my point about boxing. That's like saying you would still like to see this .. http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=cdbVjAuwg0c
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Re: Miscellaneous Video Discussion

Post  Guest on Sun Apr 20, 2008 8:57 am

Rob Mac wrote: Tommy, guess I just can't see your point mate. Trad staying trad etc. I go back to my point about boxing. That's like saying you would still like to see this ..

For the fighting aspect it has to be like boxing and stay progressive. Or in modern times maybe the comparison would be MMA. But that's for "fighting" and for that I agree with you. But as far as TMA is concerned it is about way too much other crap and most of that isn't fighting. It is just an old fashioned art form and for that I think it should stay as it is for the most part. Keeping one foot firmly planted in the old ways for posterity. Like Kendo (Japanese sword practice) or Kyudo (Japanese Archery) these things don't modify with the times. Those things are just human art forms based on a ancient way of defense practiced more for the journey of self perfection than anything else. "That" to me is what traditional karate is.....not fighting. Is there fight in it? Sure "if" you modify it. But I keep the two separate. There isn't enough time in a class to work both ways and if you're about fighting then all the other traditional "non fighting" stuff would just waste your time.


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Re: Miscellaneous Video Discussion

Post  Rob Mac on Sun Apr 20, 2008 9:15 am

Yeah ok...I guess it's more that people get confused and believe they're signing up for some sort of SD or something and reality it's certainly not... by the way how do you create the quotes underneath your posts?
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Re: Miscellaneous Video Discussion

Post  bob on Sun Apr 20, 2008 6:56 pm

As a side note....for some reason I have lost all interest in traditional karate these days. It got boring and stagnant and redundant and...

That sums it up for me Tommy.

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Re: Miscellaneous Video Discussion

Post  bob on Sun Apr 20, 2008 7:05 pm

The second clip posted was to show how Karate should be. Regardless of what Karate 'should be' or is does Karate not have the right to progress without people saying 'that's not Karate'. Look at old boxing/thai boxing clips both arts have changed dramatically without anyone saying 'thats not real boxing' or whatever. I come from a kick boxing and chinese boxing background but practice clinch work, throws, and now ground work whatever. Nobody says oh you're not practising real kick-boxing. Cheers Rob

Rob,
Admittedly it can be difficult to define Traditional Karate as there are many styles & some karateka are effective (a minority IMO). But if you stop practicing kata (forms) and Kihon (basics) & then if you allow contact and takedowns in sparring can you still call it karate?
I guess it would be possible to practice MMA & wear a Gi & call it karate, but at that point for me its time to move on.
Cheers, Ken

PS I cant find the quote icon.

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Re: Miscellaneous Video Discussion

Post  Rob Mac on Mon Apr 21, 2008 8:59 am

Thanks for your time guys. Getting away from Karate (it's not the same without Mr. Hughes!) For those who are like myself predominately strikers, how much time would you dedicate to groundwork and what would be your choice of art?
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Re: Miscellaneous Video Discussion

Post  Guest on Mon Apr 21, 2008 9:08 am

Rob Mac wrote: For those who are like myself predominately strikers, how much time would you dedicate to groundwork and what would be your choice of art?

My choice is standup; that's because I prefer a knockout or pain via fists/feet. I enjoy beating the crap out of someone rather than submitting them. I realize the need to be at least familiar with ground work but I don't focus on it. In the street I don't want to be down there and in practice (or if I were competing) then my game is be to keep it on my feet. But that requires a knowledge of what I'm defending against to be able to avoid being taken or held down. I look at it this way; I want my standup to be better than his ground. That means I want to hit faster and harder and be able to stop his take down attempts. I learn ground and especially clinch work to round myself out but all in an attempt to better my striking/standup.

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Re: Miscellaneous Video Discussion

Post  MikeB on Wed Apr 23, 2008 3:54 am

Rob Mac wrote: karate guy beating a jiu-jitsu guy with ease... http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=LKPyO4sdfoo

FYI - Ray Elbe can't really be classed as a BJJ guy (he is only a blue belt...) He also spent time instructing and fighting in Thailand, so he is arguably more of a stand-up fighter than a grappler.


Regarding BJJ 'players' - granted, a lot of BJJ is sports jiu jitsu and taught as such. However, it was originally developed for (and on) the street. Obviously not a be-all and end-all fighting system, but I'd rather have someone try to hit me in the head (at least I can run away!!) than someone grab me and choke me out.

Also, the argument that 'He might have 10 mates round the corner who will come and stamp you out' is valid, but I'm always drawn back to a brawl I witnessed (and luckily avoided) one Xmas eve:

One poor chap was having a 'straightener' with another guy outside the pub behind my old school. I was leaving to go home, and stepped in to break it up, along with another chap.

Suddenly a load of other guys came storming round the corner, grabbed one of the kids who was fighting and the other guy who was helping me to break it up.

One of the kids was held in a Thai clinch by a chap who proceeded to reef knees into his face.

The other kid was on the floor and was having his head booted in from all angles by a number of the other chaps.

The interesting thing is that both were able to escape to safety with, seemingly, no real harm done.

Perhaps this is the exception, rather than the rule (and, obviously, you wouldn't want to knowingly put yourself in that position). Some food for thought, in any case.

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Re: Miscellaneous Video Discussion

Post  Guest on Thu Apr 24, 2008 8:25 am

Like I said, for competition I would want to know more ground fighting. For the street I just want to be comfortable enough should I hit the ground and experienced enough to get back up quickly. I'm not looking to fight on the ground. What I experienced in my brief experience with BJJ training was that a lot of what they do relies on the gi. Obviously in MMA the ground fighting and BJJ used is bare skinned but then again most of it is harder to apply (due to the lack of gi) and many techniques are not used at all. Even armbars are more difficult. The chokes in MMA are naked while in BJJ many are not. In the street a lot of shirts are lost or flimsy to begin with so aren't reliable for a grip. While training may address this issue I don't think it does enough. Just another view of the picture.

I personally don't want to spend too much time delving into ground fighting. Grappling yes, ground fighting not as much. Grappling means clinching which is important for control as well as possibly avoiding the ground in a street fight. Grappling means controlling your opponent and unbalancing him setting him up for whatever you have to do. Grappling means avoiding being controlled and escaping grabs or tackle/holds/hugs from bigger stronger opponents.

Don't get me wrong, I think BJJ is great and I understand it and where it came from. I'm just saying that the picture is bigger than some see (on both sides) and a lot has to be considered in ones training. Well...IMO Smile

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