false sense of security?

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false sense of security?

Post  Rob Mac on Sun Apr 06, 2008 7:00 am

Right, I'm crap at explaining things written down but here goes. Just finished a class (another enormous turn out of 4!) and got them sparring at the end at about 70%. I was pretty much letting them lay into me while I was covering, all stand-up. One of the guys said after how he couldn't get near me(not showing off,it's only his second time training) but I had 12oz gloves on, I try and make all my stuff as applicable to the street and cage as possible, isn't this lulling into a false sense of security? It's obviously a massive luxury covering with big gloves, but we're going to be picking up alot of injuries otherwise. I'm VERY much a novice instructor and try and keep stuff simple and as real as possible, what's your thoughts on this Steve? Or anyone else for that matter...who has posted a clip. Cheers Rob


Last edited by Rob Mac on Sun Apr 06, 2008 7:20 am; edited 1 time in total
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Re: false sense of security?

Post  Rob Mac on Sun Apr 06, 2008 7:03 am

Think of a dumbed down version of this... http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=8UOMTCNshj8
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Re: false sense of security?

Post  Guest on Sun Apr 06, 2008 8:38 am

Hi Rob,

I can't say I have a real answer and I'm sure Steve will help you. But I do have a thought based on how I approach this for myself as well as how we train at the club I belong to.

Do you trade off/alternate training with the training gloves you mentioned and MMA gloves? We use the boxing gloves (12 oz) without headgear and we go pretty hard. If you want to go harder that is up to you the individual student. The contact is kind of graduated, starting easy and growing in intensity as you feel more comfortable. At times I "get in there" and get my head hit so I can get more accustomed to it. Others may not approach it that way but some do...its up to the individual. But "you the instructor" give the instruction by telling them how to progress to more contact gradually, then you push at times.

On days using MMA gloves we use headgear to start with because of the black eyes and busted noses that may occur and people have to go to work. But there again, the instruction is given that it is a choice and as you progress you can take it off. Contact should increase as time passes with the guy getting hit asking to hit 'harder" when he feels ready..and so on.

A drill we did a couple of weeks ago gave me some good defense practice, footwork as well as good head contact. One guy was in the corner trying to get out while the other was trying to keep him there, both using hands and feet (no clinching/takedowns). A 2 minute round and then switch positions for another round/switch again and so on. You and your partner can work intensity as an agreement. I think it is up to you to set up instruction on how to increase contact within the bounds of safety leading up to some good hard shots while also instructing how to do it in graduated steps on an individual basis. They know there own comfort level and for the ones who are holding back you can give a little push.

Sometimes I have a guy take shots at my head while I move around and block some of them and others I take. Then I'll say "harder" and go some more and so on. Start with headgear, then none, then switch to MMA gloves and headgear, then no headgear etc. Same for ground and pound.

I think you can only get as "close as safely possible" in training for the street. You aren't going to be able to practice all out (which would be no gloves). But the MMA gloves do help more than boxing training gloves.

Then again maybe you do all this already and in that case, I don't have an answer Very Happy
Tommy

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Re: false sense of security?

Post  Rob Mac on Sun Apr 06, 2008 1:14 pm

Thanks for your answer Tommy. Myself and another guy go at it with mma gloves(occasionally), but the other guy competes often in mma bouts and is accustomed to getting wacked and I've had a good few kick boxing bouts. But for the guys who don't want to get broken noses, cuts etc I don't really know...in total there are only 7 training with us and 5 have made it quite clear that they don't want to get hammered, they all do other sports and they are a priority for them. If there is good surf for example they don't turn up! I think that's fair enough, they are good guys, but am i lulling them into a false sense of security I don't know...
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Re: false sense of security?

Post  Guest on Sun Apr 06, 2008 1:38 pm

Rob Mac wrote: , but am i lulling them into a false sense of security I don't know...


IMO, not if you are explaining the differences as well as the dangers. But the potential problem I see is the possibility of watered down training. Why would they choose to train in MMA and be afraid to get hit? Should MMA start to cater...like traditional arts? No!!!

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Re: false sense of security?

Post  steve morris on Mon Apr 07, 2008 8:22 am

You know the saying, 'You train as you will need to fight and fight as you have trained.' What that doesn't say, is that you train as you need to fight without killing the your training partner, but with the idea that you will be killing your opponent in the fight.

This has been the problem since the legions of Rome, who saw their training exercises as a 'bloodless war,' and war itself as a 'bloody exercise'.

Knowing that from reading military journals, I realised way back that this was the essence of my problem as a trainer. In Earlham Street, we were lucky that nobody did die or end up seriously injured. Not to mention the fact that we were always short of training partners anyway.

This issue is what my method is all about. How to create a fighting environment within the gym that is relatively safe.

It isn't really about what type of gloves you're using, it's about the principle of replicating a very high intensity, violent training environment and preserving an element of safety within it. And I'll come back to you a bit later because I don't have time today to go into more detail.
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Re: false sense of security?

Post  Rob Mac on Mon Apr 07, 2008 11:04 am

Cheers Tommy, cheers Steve. Look forward to hearing more. Tommy these are good guys, (trust me I've trained with all types) and they all put 100% in pad work and floor work. The pad work we do would challenge most 3-5 6 min rounds split with floor work. THey are also ALL into either surfing or kyte surfing so they know about challenges. They just don't want to get their faces mullered, actually noses to be exact! Not that mine is mullered!
This is why I like ground work, I'm still absolutely shite at it, but it allows you to go 100% reasonably safely. Cheers Rob
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Re: false sense of security?

Post  Rob Mac on Mon Apr 07, 2008 11:18 am

Just to say we don't wear head guards at all, I really don't like them for many reasons. Just to say Tommy, I'm not having a pop mate, but when you live where I do good training partners are VERY hard to come by. Also I started a club out of need NOT because I'm shit hot, the only other option was a Shotokan Karate club. Hmmmm. So I need all the help I can get! I would give it all up tommorow if I had the options that you lot have! I'm going to have to travel 2hours on fri to train grappling. There's people on this site that can't be arsed to go a couple of miles!
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Re: false sense of security?

Post  Guest on Mon Apr 07, 2008 11:29 am

I understand Rob, I didn't mean anything by my post. I shouldn't have butted in on Steve's territory by replying to your question...I was just thinking out loud Smile I've been sick the past couple of weeks so I'm kind of brain dead. And as a side note my ground game sucks also.

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Re: false sense of security?

Post  Rob Mac on Mon Apr 07, 2008 11:47 am

Yeah I'm new to ground stuff, been ignoring it for years! Went down to Gracie Barra in Banus two fridays ago and completely mugged off, in a friendly way! Something I found interesting though, my mate who trains with this mob alot said that very few of these boys like to mix it up in the MMa class they do down there. Again, they don't like broken noses!
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Re: false sense of security?

Post  steve morris on Mon Apr 07, 2008 11:57 am

Tommy, you probably read my posts on the other threads today. They're not directed exclusively to Simon Lau, but equally I want you to know that I didn't read you as butting in. You and me know each other--we're long-distance mates (even though you did once call me a putz on Karate Underground!--remember? I bear no grudges.) and I know when you come into a thread, you're not trying to piss on my front door. But I've had a couple of occasions where I get the feeling the guy is trying to score points off me. That's what I react to.

I been in this game too long not to know there are no points to be scored. There are no absolutes. I give my opinions and my advice, but I might change my mind about it tomorrow.

At the end of the day, I want to be in the gym, not at the computer. That's where I do my best work. I'm only here to try and get people interested in my methodology.
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Re: false sense of security?

Post  Rob Mac on Mon Apr 07, 2008 12:09 pm

I prefer to be training, but I do find this forum a good way to relax and bounce off a few ideas. Especially just after training when I'm on a high and can't sleep. Anyway do you understand what I'm going on about with the gloves Steve? And what is a Putz?
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Re: false sense of security?

Post  steve morris on Mon Apr 07, 2008 12:15 pm

Yeah, I understand. The short route is go and watch Peter Smit the Kyokushin Kai knockdown guy, I posted him a while back. If you eliminate kicks to the head, all the shots can be to body and legs. Guy stays pretty, but he gets to experience the mix. The only thing you shouldn't do is defend the body shots as body shots. Keep thinking of protecting the head as you're doing it. If the shots are coming to the upper body or shoulders, treat them as head shots. Treat the fight as if the head was included, rather than as in Kyokushin Kai where it isn't included (except kicks). Do that in very short interval bursts, so you get a very high intensity exchange. Drill it technically, then raise the tempo of the drill to fight pace, and then just let it go. You've already set the conditions, so it's a form of conditional fighting.

You should be able to do that with no gloves, or any size glove you want.

Once you've established that template, you can then start mixing in other stuff: clinch work, takedowns, etc.

THat's your short answer.
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Re: false sense of security?

Post  Rob Mac on Mon Apr 07, 2008 12:22 pm

Understood, cheers.
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Re: false sense of security?

Post  Guest on Mon Apr 07, 2008 1:21 pm

steve morris wrote: even though you did once call me a putz on Karate Underground!--remember?

Did I? Very Happy I don't remember that...especially since I never use the word "putz" Laughing

But knowing myself and how I react defensively by nature I probably did say something along the lines of "who is this SM guy and what has he done that I haven't?" Laughing

My apologies my good man....I spoke before understanding (something that used to get me into fights too often). Well, at least afterward I went and read and learned and then "shut up!" Very Happy

Tommy

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Re: false sense of security?

Post  steve morris on Mon Apr 07, 2008 1:27 pm

Tommy, any role I played in getting you into doing what you're doing now, I'm happy. I like giving guys that new lease on life in martial arts.

Don't know if I'm going to ever convert Harry though...
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