About the "Clinch"

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About the "Clinch"

Post  Luciano Imoto on Thu Apr 03, 2008 1:19 pm

What are the MORRISMETHOD´s approach to the clinch?
Is it clinch the second (or middle level) essential components of fight (stand-up first and ground in third)?
I will profit know more about this topic and also I will enjoy watch some MMA pro-fights in Youtube to good reference under your indication, because the clinch is almost inevitable in a real struggle...
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Re: About the "Clinch"

Post  steve morris on Fri Apr 04, 2008 12:58 am

Yeah, the clinch is usually inevitable within the fight. Even on the ground. The more familiar you are with the clinch, the better. It sometimes becomes a dead position. People just hold on. If you can't fight, it's better than being hit. But sooner or later the guy will find his way out, break the clinch and start working on you.

So the clinch should be seen as a positive move, not a negative one. Use it to fight for dominant position; that's the pummeling drill, working either the Greco-Roman over and under hooks, or the Muay Thai clinch. Always be fighting for positional control so that you can get your head or your hips into position to do whatever work you need to do: a throw, strikes, etc.

Here's a selection of clips. On the Randy Couture, there are a whole bunch of them up there; this is just one.

What you've got to remember is that with clinch work, you technically drill it. Then you fight-drill it; you make the drill more intense as it would be in fighting. And then finally you make a conditional fight of it to test it. For example, the first guy can try to hit the second guy and the second guy has got to succeed in producing a clinch. Or, you make a clinch and the first guy has to get the second guy to the ground while the second guy has got to prevent him. It's really role-playing as it would take place in the fight. These bouts are very short and very intense, so they represent that intense moment in the fight. You don't want to get into a long, drawn out time period where you're hanging on each other. You don't want that shit.

On the ground, you can take any position and have the guy grounding and pounding you, and then the trainer calls 'fight' and the man who's being grounded and pounded has to clinch and tie up the other guy whilst the first guy is trying to break free and continue his GNP. You can add submissions to this kind of training scenario. There's lots and lots of variations; we do them all at Primal.
[url]
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=VZoest5AEMo
[/url]
[url]
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=uRS5J-lhXq4&feature=related[/url]

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=brYgHlH6h0s&feature=related

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=eNfDEIc0aWo

If you look at the Buakaw fight, the clinch is part of his purpose to knee you, throw you, etc. It's part of the ferocity of his intent.

This is an earlier fight with Masato. Masato doesn't stand a chance, but he's obviously learnt a lot from that lesson--in fact he fights a little like Buakaw now, and he got the decision in the more recent fight.

That's why I say that even a guy like Cung Lee, if he learns the lesson, can become better. It's the fight that teaches you. You can never make a bet on anybody in this game.
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buakan

Post  jethro on Fri Apr 04, 2008 2:18 am

I loved that of Buakan, best I have seen,so clean and fast and powerful.

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Re: About the "Clinch"

Post  steve morris on Fri Apr 04, 2008 5:43 am

I think Buakaw of all the fighters I've seen exemplifies a successful marriage between form and function. A bit like a Formula One racing car or a supercar. He has a natural, dynamic style when he's doing you!

I look at some of the fourms on form and function and it's so much blah blah. I know the guys, and they're still driving Model T's, but you'd think they were supercars the way they talk about what they do.

Buakaw's the real deal. His form is a consequence of what he needs to do, and it's great to look at. Even at 64, I still consider him a role model for the standup. He's a guy I want to emulate.
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Re: About the "Clinch"

Post  Luciano Imoto on Fri Apr 04, 2008 8:11 am

Mr. Morris, you gave to me enough matter to study, drill, train and test for the next years!
And your recent DVDs (MorrisMethod 4: Power Pad) cover this topic too.
Thanks to much!
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Re: About the "Clinch"

Post  524526 on Fri Apr 04, 2008 8:26 am

Hope you guys don't mind me butting in , but what impresses me about Buakaw most are his kicks especially his teep.

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Re: About the "Clinch"

Post  Luciano Imoto on Fri Apr 04, 2008 12:07 pm

http://www.mmafights.co.uk/MMA-video-222-Georges-St-Pierre-vs-Matt-Hughes-3.html

JONLAW put this link today in another topic here and I saw some relevance with this topic about "clinch" because Steve Morris said:

Yeah, the clinch is usually inevitable within the fight. Even on the ground.

Good reference to "Watch The Fight" in my view.

To Simon Lau:
More deaths in Muay Thai´s "rings" have been attributed to KNEE attacks.
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Re: About the "Clinch"

Post  524526 on Fri Apr 04, 2008 12:28 pm

Luciano Imoto wrote:

To Simon Lau:
More deaths in Muay Thai´s "rings" have been attributed to KNEE attacks.


Don't understand the point you are making , dude.

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Re: About the "Clinch"

Post  Luciano Imoto on Fri Apr 04, 2008 12:38 pm

Teep are fine to hit and keep distance, but Kao really hurts Twisted Evil
Of course the Buakaw´s Teep works too.
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Re: About the "Clinch"

Post  JonLaw on Fri Apr 04, 2008 2:36 pm

and this link too Luciano

http://www.mmascraps.com/2008/01/paul-daley-vs-sam-morgan-shoxc.html

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Re: About the "Clinch"

Post  Luciano Imoto on Fri Apr 04, 2008 3:00 pm

Man, I´m putting all yours MMA´s websites in my favourites!
You really hunted this video stuff in net! Thanks JONLAW!
Blogs can have good references too.

About the fight above:
Strong combination of knee and elbows!
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Re: About the "Clinch"

Post  524526 on Sat Apr 05, 2008 7:04 am

Luciano Imoto wrote:Teep are fine to hit and keep distance, but Kao really hurts Twisted Evil
Of course the Buakaw´s Teep works too.

Yeah , hope you don't mind but that is saying the obvious. And Something I don't highlight as Buakaw mainly fights Max where the clinch is limited.

But he still can and does show his teep .

if you want MMA Thai clinch , why not Anderson Silva , dude ?

And better bookmark this one too dude:

http://www.youtube.com/view_play_list?p=62EB4AB3C95722CB

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Re: About the "Clinch"

Post  Rob Mac on Sat Apr 05, 2008 8:43 am

JonLaw, I love that Daley fight...'send him home to have tea and crumpets with his mum.' I don't think so!
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Re: About the "Clinch"

Post  Luciano Imoto on Sat Apr 05, 2008 11:00 am

Thanks Simon Lau: I bookmarked it too.
You seems an expert in Thai boxing field.
Some people here think my original art was Aikido/Jiu-jitsu, but I really started training martial arts in one Kickboxing style in Brazil in 1988.
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Re: About the "Clinch"

Post  524526 on Sat Apr 05, 2008 11:34 am

Luciano Imoto wrote:Thanks Simon Lau: I bookmarked it too.
You seems an expert in Thai boxing field..

Oh no , I'm not , just repeating my 2cts of knowledge I picked up on my last trip to Thailand.

Luciano Imoto wrote:
Some people here think my original art was Aikido/Jiu-jitsu, but I really started training martial arts in one Kickboxing style in Brazil in 1988.

Sounds good , you have so much good stuff in Brasil . I see you are in SP , is that not where chuteboxe is ?

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Re: About the "Clinch"

Post  steve morris on Sun Apr 06, 2008 12:05 am

I looked at those clips, Simon. Some are good, some bad but the majority are just bad.

Anderson Silva sure has got a good clinch, but it's pretty one-dimensional. He's a great fighter and it works well for him, but the guys he's fighting don't have much in that department.And that's why I put the Muay Thai up, because they're fighting guys who do know how to work the clinch. So you get a wide perspective of the way the clinch might work and in what situation.

A lot of you guys get very 'technical' as to the 'how' to do a move--particularly you, Luciano. What you need to understand about the clinch and any other move is the 'why'--what functions does it fulfill. And because a lot of you are NOT fighters, rather than looking and absorbing the technique, look at and absorb the EXPERIENCE. Because that's the thing you're missing.

Otherwise it becomes so geeky.
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Re: About the "Clinch"

Post  524526 on Sun Apr 06, 2008 2:10 am

steve morris wrote:I looked at those clips, Simon. Some are good, some bad but the majority are just bad. .

Hi Steve , which ones did you think are worth looking at ? BTW , I feel the same but it was all in a list and easier to post that way.

What did you think of the Frank Benn stuff ?

Anderson Silva sure has got a good clinch, but it's pretty one-dimensional. He's a great fighter and it works well for him, but the guys he's fighting don't have much in that department.

I really like Anderson , I feel you can learn a lot from a guy like him , his methodology is clean and easy to see.

The thing he is doing it in as close a possible to a NHB environment where his opponents use whatever " technique " they want as opposed to a pure MT one , where greco type counters are not really used.

It's true that this is an area which is still being developed , because if you think about it this is the 1st time that clinch fighting can be used to it's full arsenal rather than just in the MT arena.

David Loiseau was a guy who used this to great effect , see his elbows x Rivera

And that's why I put the Muay Thai up, because they're fighting guys who do know how to work the clinch. So you get a wide perspective of the way the clinch might work and in what situation.

Yes I have the Malaipet video , PM me if you want it .


A lot of you guys get very 'technical' as to the 'how' to do a move--particularly you, Luciano. What you need to understand about the clinch and any other move is the 'why'--what functions does it fulfill. And because a lot of you are NOT fighters, rather than looking and absorbing the technique, look at and absorb the EXPERIENCE. Because that's the thing you're missing.

Otherwise it becomes so geeky


I hear what you are saying , but sometimes I find looking at the
" technique " gives me a clue to the experience , like reverse engineering and I can get at it frm a different angle and it allows me to tweak it for my own purposes.

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Re: About the "Clinch"

Post  steve morris on Sun Apr 06, 2008 4:23 am

Simon, the original question wasn't directed to you, it was directed to me. I tried to put up informative clips and not just post a list that anybody could do a google and find.

The clinch work that Anderson Silva used against Rich Franklin for example, I doubt if it would work against a good MT fighter. Standup is standup, however you look at it. Where do you think that Anderson Silva got the clinch work from? No matter how innovatively he uses it, it's still a Muay Thai clinch. Better to go to the source, and it's a living tradition being constantly tested and evolving. The standard in Thailand is very high.

Whatever experience you're getting from watching a fight, emotionally, physically, technically, you have to test the experience. That goes for anybody. The only way you can do that is in a fight.

By the way, Simon, where's your clip? Then we can see what you mean in action. I would be more inclined to engage in discussion with you if you showed a clip.
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Re: About the "Clinch"

Post  Luciano Imoto on Sun Apr 06, 2008 1:13 pm

A lot of you guys get very 'technical' as to the 'how' to do a move--particularly you, Luciano.

Yes Mr. Morris. You hit the the bull´s eye.
I started in KickBoxing Full Contact style in 1988, but my next adventure in 1992 was in Traditional Aikido...
This Kata/Waza´s based martial art retarded my evolution for almost 8 years. In 1998, after I saw that first PRIDE tournament, I changed my view. And my next error was search solutions in Neichia schools... But only in 2006 I found your pionner MMA approach.
I´m still studying and training following yours DVDs and coach advices since that.
I had many experiences with "traditional martial arts instructors" who claimed they could teach me how to "fight." What they had to offer was a disaster when I tried to apply it (luckily I carried my Spyderco). Not to put to fine of a point on it, but I was kicked trying to use "traditional martial arts" for real fight. When I confronted them with this failure I was told I had "done it wrong". Wrong answer: it had failed all on its own. This explain my anger at "traditional martial arts." (see my post about "Mysticism in Martial Arts")
MorrisMethod is another subject and I have strong respect for your work Mr. Morris.

Today, in my 34 years old (I´m young!), my next step is to test and improve my actual abilities against pro-fighters in main gyms here, in São Paulo city: Jiu-jitsu (Macaco Team), Kyokushin (Isobe and Ademir´s version Seiwakai), Muay Thai clubs (Gibi Team and Pamplona), some Boxers in Pugilism federation and Wrestling olympics guys.
Some friends and students of my club will make the same with me.
Thanks too Ken Milling and Tommy Wink

About my clip performance and that kick clinic I will post in Youtube in the next week.

Simon Lau wrote:
I see you are in SP, is that not where chuteboxe is?

Chute Boxe gym is in Curitiba, another big city in south region of Brazil.
http://www.academiachuteboxe.com.br

And Dylan, I really have "argentinian blood", but only in my Spyderco´s blade Twisted Evil
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Re: About the "Clinch"

Post  524526 on Mon Apr 07, 2008 8:20 am

steve morris wrote:Simon, the original question wasn't directed to you, it was directed to me. I tried to put up informative clips and not just post a list that anybody could do a google and find. .

Fair enough I may have misread the original post , but I put up the list for people to make up their own minds about them , there isn't that much high quality freebies around . Certainly subverting you was the furthest thing on my mind.

The clinch work that Anderson Silva used against Rich Franklin for example, I doubt if it would work against a good MT fighter. Standup is standup, however you look at it. Where do you think that Anderson Silva got the clinch work from? No matter how innovatively he uses it, it's still a Muay Thai clinch. Better to go to the source, and it's a living tradition being constantly tested and evolving. The standard in Thailand is very high.

Well , we'll probably never known , getting Thai MT guy who fights a 185lb and 6.2 ft is a tall order indeed.

And as I said I went to Thailand last November and we trained fair bit of clinch , so the source I have been to.

Whatever experience you're getting from watching a fight, emotionally, physically, technically, you have to test the experience. That goes for anybody. The only way you can do that is in a fight.

Agreed and I have tested in gym matches and sparring , and it worked very well. Sure it is not ideal but you have to account for the fact that where I live , fighting competitions are somewhat taboo , it's a long story but you will have to take my word for it .


By the way, Simon, where's your clip? Then we can see what you mean in action. I would be more inclined to engage in discussion with you if you showed a clip.

Believe me , I have nothing to hide from you and would very much like to put up a clip , but as you know I am cash strapped at the moment and getting video camera is not a high priority.

But I will try to get something up before the 13th , otherwise , I will have to abide by you rules till I can get a clip up.

Sorry , I really don't like being broke so's that's the best I can do for now.

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Re: About the "Clinch"

Post  steve morris on Mon Apr 07, 2008 8:33 am

What you have to understand Simon is that this is a Q&A. The question was addressed to me, not to you. Get that in your head.

If you don't like my answer, that's your business. But as far as information about clinch work was concerned, most of the clips you put up were useless. In fact, all of this is very academic. That's the problem with being keyboard warriors. I don't like doing it, even for five minutes. I'd rather see you face to face; then I'll explain things to you.

I'm not going to sit on a keyboard having a long discussion about what worked and why and who and when. I've pointed Luciano in a direction, but I'm not going to wipe his ass for him and he hasn't asked for that. I'm just giving direction.

And this direction isn't dictatorial, but it has authority in the sense that I was asked to do this forum on the basis of who I am and what I know. If you want to put your bid in for your own Q&A, then go see Brian S.

Otherwise, if the question's addressed to me, stay out of it. You want to air your opinions, choose somebody else's forum. In fact, I think that would be a good idea. Then you don't need a camera.
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Re: About the "Clinch"

Post  Luciano Imoto on Mon Apr 07, 2008 8:57 am

I've pointed Luciano in a direction, but I'm not going to wipe his ass for him and he hasn't asked for that. I'm just giving direction.

In this path we need guidance like you are giving to me, and I´m very grateful. It is essential to learn from who has reached high level, because learning martial arts from someone who is himself “no real tested” may inadvertently send you down wrong ways that you will have great difficulty turning back.

The only way you can do that is in a fight.

My next step. Besides the "oldest" way in martial arts: test to improve.
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