counter time

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counter time

Post  JonLaw on Mon Mar 24, 2008 12:00 pm

Steve you've mentioned counter time at primal but i'm not certain i fully understand what you mean. Attack is obvious, counter too, but does the counter time concept involve imposing you're time/beat on his, with yours being the faster; halfing/quartering the beat or whatever.

Presumeably this 'sense' of counter time becomes intuitive over time, much like countering as part of the rhythm of the attacker can, I'm sure i remember Benn doing this a lot. If so would it be better to concentrate on 'imposing' yourself on the opponent as 'counter time' seems to be integral to achieving this. I suppose we can link this mastering of the 'timing' with use of the breath by 'saying' the rhythm.

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Re: counter time

Post  steve morris on Wed Mar 26, 2008 2:14 am

http://www.fencing.net/forums/thread17489.html

Hereís a link to a discussion on counter-time. It develops, and it might give you some insight into the concept. Itís a fencing term. I came across it some 50 years ago reading my fatherís books on fencing.

The foil in particular develops a conversation of the possibilities of exchange with the blade. Whatís important to these exchanges is the time frames in which they occur. The lesson for me was not so much about playing a game of chess, but in understanding the periods of time in which these exchanges take place. As that developed over the years and I became aware of the striatum and its association with the interval of time within a process or between two processes, that awareness became more important than the mechanics of the exchange.

The mechanics of an exchange in, say, fencing, or in Filipino stick drills, make you aware of synchronizing with an opponentís rhythm and syncopating upon it, but the essence of it is the understanding of time and tempo. Youíre in charge of the framework in which action takes place. You can control the space because you control the time. You can see movements developing and opportunities opening up which other people canít see, because you have a heightened awareness of time.

This understanding of time is essential for crossing a road, inserting your car into traffic, playing video gamesóbut in the martial arts itís often ignored. And for me itís always been the most important element in my development of power. The timing of the development of force within my body (sequentially or simultaneously) and its application against the ground to cause a reactive force, or an impulse into my opponent to cause damage is all dependent on this highly developed sense of time. Thatís how I break bones when I hit people. Iím able to put everything I have into this condensed moment of time, and it creates a shock against the target. And obvioiusly, the release of that power must occur in accordance to the opportunistic timing to do all that given to me by my opponent unintentionally, or by my preparation of him.

Forcing your opponent to react to you is one way you can go about it, but you also have to be able to understand this time period from the other perspective, of you reacting to him. An enhanced sense of time speeds up everything you do.

Getting in tempo and setting tempo is a primary part of this. Just as when listening to music, your head is involved, your feet are involved, your hands and your body are involvedóitís just that the movement is within a combative context, and not simply a dance. Your mention of breath is an important one. I always drew on the Indian dancers who vocalize the beat of the movement with very fast tongue and breath articulations. I saw this as a way of articulating the time and expressing the rhythms that I could see, and my body would translate that vocalization at the intensity and rates I was performing. Itís a little bit like scat singing.

If you put this in the context of a large class, it would be ridiculous. Itís like jazz. Itís a personal interpretation, itís not orchestrated.

These are just some clues. Theyíre all around us, and we can use them in our martial arts.

When you look at the really great boxers, they have this innate rhythm. Maybe itís a part of their musical culture which theyíre able to translate into their fighting. In Thai boxing, itís no accident that there are musicians interpreting and contributing to the fight. So you have to let your body get involved in exciting, syncopated rhythms. If youíre the introverted typeólike me, Iíd do it in public but thatís just meógo in a room by yourself, put on some really syncopated music (I like the Black Eyed Peas but thereís lots of stuff) and then go for it. Work your fighting moves and your skipping, all your training, to the rhythm. Let the rhythm take over. Just think that your bodyís another musician in the mix.

Thatís the tip of the day.

And thatís one of my Ďsecretsí. There are a few more. Try it. Find out.

And you know what? I bet some of you guys can dance. Don't see that there's a difference. It can contribute to the way you fight. Don't formalize it. Just let it happen.
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Re: counter time

Post  Cuddly Werewolf on Thu Mar 27, 2008 5:46 am

Just as a sidenote.
When i was studying salsa (never got past the beginner's level), the footwork looked really similar to what I have been taught, and even more so as I was progressing.
I guess the reasons I had to stop are not relly relevant, but I plan to try mr. Morris advice with the latino moves as soon as it becomes possible again. Thank you for the tip!
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Re: counter time

Post  Guest on Thu Mar 27, 2008 7:00 am

This is interesting and I have an idea for my next training session. Actually, from some of the two man drills with contact and the fighting last night (now visualizing my opponents from last night) I can picture it. Next time I want to try making it a song and jumping, finding the beat and playing along. When I feel in control of the beat/rhythm, I will "solo" (bam!).
Funny thing is (believe it or not Very Happy ) I fancy myself a deecent dancer. Well....most people say I can dance (the ones who can't) but I know that all I am doing is finding a rhythm and doing my own thing. So I'm not really a good dancer; I am just able to mesh with the rhythm and move in a coordinated and smooth rhytmic manner. Plus I am skillfull enough to mimic others on the dance floor. I don't know any dances that are actually dances, like Mambo's or Tango's etc. but as far as going to a wedding or a club, I can dance with anyone and most times people like to see me and my wife dance. She is a Latina and when I met her I ended up learning to Salsa and Meringue. Like I said, I don't know the exact steps but most people wouldn't know that. I follow the rhythm and have an idea of the steps and beat so it looks like I know what I'm doing.

I always tried to bring this into my karate teaching (not in any way in line with what you are saying) because I found people had trouble moving their feet and their hands in coordination. I used to say that that you should learn to dance...it will help with the rhythms and a smoother movement. My only thoughts back then were the staccato movements everyone was trying to do and my thoughts on fighting having a rhythm. What you just wrote adds the next level and a whole new context for me.

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Re: counter time

Post  Luciano Imoto on Thu Mar 27, 2008 12:52 pm

"The dance of battle is always played to the same impatient rhythm. What begins in a surge of violent motion is always reduced to the perfectly still." - Sun Tzu

...some martial arts in various cultures can be performed in dance-like settings for various reasons, such as for evoking ferocity in preparation for battle or showing off skill in a more stylized manner. Many such martial arts incorporate music, especially strong percussive rhythms.

Examples of such war dances include:
Capoeira is a martial art traditionally performed with a dance-like flavor and to live musical accompaniment, as seen depicted here.
Buza - From Russia.
Panther Dance - Burmese Bando with swords (dha)
Gymnopaidiai - ancient Sparta
European Sword dance or Weapon dance of various kinds
Haka - New Zealand
Sabre Dance - depicted in Khachaturian's ballet Gayane
Maasai moran (warrior age-set) dances
Aduk-Aduk - Brunei
Ayyalah - Qatar
Khattak Dance - Afghanistan
Brazil's Capoeira, as well as some similar Afro-Caribbean arts
Dannsa Biodag - Scotland and Scottish sword dances
Hula & Lua - from the traditions of indigenous Hawaiian
Combat Hopak - From Ukraine
Yolah - From Oman/UAE
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Re: counter time

Post  JonLaw on Fri Mar 28, 2008 5:25 am

Thanks for the swift reply Steve, some interesting stuff to work with. The forum discussion was useful and gives a bit of insight into the subject. I got hold of some Scat Singing cos I had no idea what it was, Louie Armstrong and Etta James, that helped too.

I've had a few goes at your 'tip of the day' and I can see how it can help, cos the music tells you what to do, or rather when to do it. I can't practise skipping but footwork and movement is an obvious choice so I suppose I've been doing the Primal stand-up warm up to BEP. It's great and will become a regular part of my training from now on. Other than BEP have you any suggestions for good syncopated music to workout to? Louie and Etta are great but it's not very upbeat...............

I suppose Tito El Bambino would be one, you've mentioned that bloke before.

I've always used Dead Kennedys and the like to work the bag with cos it's flat out and mad, BEP is different to asy the least.

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Re: counter time

Post  Cuddly Werewolf on Fri Mar 28, 2008 7:30 am

I must note (from RL experience!) that using steps from the forms you've studied tends to impress the other dancers afro !

Luciano Imoto, there are heated discussions whether Buza and/or Hopak are actually "historical" styles. Just in case you might not know it.
But anyway, Capoeira is a fine example, and Southeast Asian martial arts are also played on music sometimes (including Silat exhibitions).

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Re: counter time

Post  Luciano Imoto on Fri Mar 28, 2008 8:52 am

Luciano Imoto, there are heated discussions whether Buza and/or Hopak are actually "historical" styles. Just in case you might not know it.

Oh well, in really this "historical" information donīt matter here.
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