Something to kick around

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Re: Something to kick around

Post  Rob Mac on Sat Feb 23, 2008 4:36 am

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=FSE9u1p7TW4&feature=related I think at the end of this clip it shows some of these guys fighting outside of their own arena. Anyway, is this 'real' Karate or is this... http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=zsg34LIc1vk
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Re: Something to kick around

Post  BN on Sat Feb 23, 2008 6:08 am

Daido Juku is MMA in a gi with headgaurds.

It's no karate that I ever did. I am not style bashing, this is merely an observation based on my personnal experience.

Great stuff. I reckon training like that would be great for fighting for real.

P.s. LOL@Gichin Funakoshi.
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Re: Something to kick around

Post  Guest on Sat Feb 23, 2008 6:22 am

Bloody Nuisance wrote:Daido Juku is MMA in a gi with headgaurds.

It's no karate that I ever did. I am not style bashing, this is merely an observation based on my personnal experience.

Great stuff. I reckon training like that would be great for fighting for real.

P.s. LOL@Gichin Funakoshi.

I like Daido Juku myself and I think that if you are into karate for fighting then that or Kyokushin are the way to go. However I believe that karate originally was more in line with civil self defense and wasn't meant to go for long distance. But at the same time I do believe there was more "fight" in it than is typically found today in a lot of the traditional stuff. Like I have said many times over, it isn't the techniques of karate that are poor; I have no problem learning the techniques. It is the current method (current may be the last 100 years!) of training those techniques.

A big problem that I see is that karate practitioners "become" karate. They don't just train in it, it becomes all that they are and do (a lifetime endeavor). In reality it should only be a part of what they do....part of the whole.

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Re: Something to kick around

Post  BN on Sat Feb 23, 2008 6:35 am

Exactly,

It's not the techniques per se. Take a front kick/ mea geri whatever, it's a perfectly valid technique. It's not the techniques, but how you train them.

When I did karate, we did the usual tri-partite of kata, kumite, and kihon. I learned lots of techniques (too many really) but not how to apply them against real life opponents. As Steve often points out, and was true in the case of the training I did, the emphasis was on repression rather than expression of aggression.

Daido Juku looks much more "streetfightish" than what I practiced, and have seen in various dojos. So much so, that I am not sure it's fair to call it karate. I like the scrappyness and use of groundwork and headbutts. The helmets not so much, but I suppose they are essential for safety.
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Re: Something to kick around

Post  Guest on Sat Feb 23, 2008 6:39 am

Bloody Nuisance wrote:Exactly,

It's not the techniques per se. Take a front kick/ mea geri whatever, it's a perfectly valid technique. It's not the techniques, but how you train them.

When I did karate, we did the usual tri-partite of kata, kumite, and kihon. I learned lots of techniques (too many really) but not how to apply them against real life opponents. As Steve often points out, and was true in the case of the training I did, the emphasis was on repression rather than expression of aggression.

Daido Juku looks much more "streetfightish" than what I practiced, and have seen in various dojos. So much so, that I am not sure it's fair to call it karate. I like the scrappyness and use of groundwork and headbutts. The helmets not so much, but I suppose they are essential for safety.

And taking this full circle back to Steve's original points in this thread. It many times comes down to who you choose to believe as far as what you are learning. Someone who 'sounds" impressive with all the mystical reasons why a technique should be "perfect" or someone who understands the variables of a fight and can apply or teach the "principles" of a technique or movement so that you can fit it to the fight and to yourself. Why perfect empty techniques?

Tommy

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Re: Something to kick around

Post  Rob Mac on Sat Feb 23, 2008 7:22 am

I would just like to know 'what' Karate is?? I really don't understand scratch Thai Boxing, Kick boxing, Judo, Boxing, Wrestling, BJJ I understand, I just don't get the idea oF Karate. What is it meant for? Is it for health benefits? Is it a cultural thing or is it meant to be a fighting art?
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Re: Something to kick around

Post  Rob Mac on Sat Feb 23, 2008 7:39 am

I've read that back and it souns like a piss take, it's not. I just don't understand if it's been watered down or not. If you look at old style boxing or Thai etc it looks shit, but these arts have progressed. You don't seem to get that in Karate it doesn't seem to be dynamic or relative to todays fighting. To say that all Gi orientated stuff is rubbish is in MHO wrong, but noone has said that. I think that Judo is a fantastic art for many reasons and as for TMA per se I don't think there is such a beast. Isn't Pancration the father of all arts? In that case we are all studying some form of mixed martial arts. Putting into practice is the only real test. How do you do that without going out and starting fights in the street? I think mma comps are the best, safest way of testing your skills. If your stuff can stand up in that enviroment then your onto a winner, whatever you do. Cheers Rob
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something to kick around

Post  arthur meek on Sat Feb 23, 2008 11:02 am

Wow this whole Karate thing really has opened a can of worms. I think we must realise that often our first choice of a Martial Art comes out of curiosity and convenience.
In 1975 the only option for me was Karate. Crikey, this was Somerset so we had only just moved on from the horse and cart! Unlike Steve I had no prior knowledge of fighting systems so I felt it was an ideal introduction to punching and kicking. Sparring then was a little rough; you got your lip split, you got winded, black eyes were commonplace(ask my mum). For me it was a healthy introduction to fighting. We were encouraged to keep going if we weren't too badly hurt. There were no mitts worn then and no mats to fight on. I felt at the age of fifteen it was just enough for me to handle.
However, when I reached 18yrs old my brother had got into boxing and I envied the fights he was having and the full on experience he was gaining, so I joined up and within 4 months had my first fight. I still remained with the Karate club but boxed for a couple of seasons racking up 17 fights. I had some humdingers AND got stopped in the first round at championship level. Personally, I wasn't good enough to be an international boxer but I felt I had it in me to do so in Karate. In 1981 I went to Japan where I trained for 9 months at a university karate club but unlike Steve's experience I was treated well on a personal front. I shared the life of with the other guys and was treated no differently. I got kicked in the groin, my nose broke and some of the other lads had their front teeth knocked out. But I dished it out too. These were all among students my own age so we naturally vied for positions. We often had to take our opponents down to the floor and fight a bit while down there.
You see, I didn't have an inherent killer instinct but I felt over the period of these years I was developing something, a fighting attitude if you like that perhaps people like Tommy P had to on the streets.
There was no MMA back then or even kickboxing unless you were in London, Birmingham or funny enough Cornwall with the Cooper brothers.
I had every intention of kickboxing but simply had no opportunity. Anyway I continued with the Karate and started working the doors on my return to the UK. I had plenty of real life experience over a period that spanned 15 years or so. I also trained with local boxers and competed in a couple of unlicensed boxing matches along the way. I was successful as a Karate competitor in my own way but it was just another means to an end. I guess to me Karate has been that catalyst for me to develop my own fighting mentality.
Several years ago I started my own kickboxing club and so continued with my own fair share of full contact training. Since then a few from the Karate club have crossed over to step into the ring. My own wife has a 2-2 record and my son 5-2-1.
One of my kickboxing students was a fifteen stone dan grade in Judo and while I enjoyed outgunning him standing up he tore me apart on the floor. That then hooked me into the grappling and we naturally moved into MMA.
Martial Arts can be like politics. It has its fair share of non truths, charlatans, different view points and empty promises. I have felt however that I have done the best I could with my limited ability but I have always been willing to learn. And much has happened as a matter of course rather than by long term planning. I now consider myself a martial artist rather than just a Karate man.

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Re: Something to kick around

Post  Guest on Sat Feb 23, 2008 11:12 am

Arthur, it seems the key for you, as I feel for myself also, was progression. The need to evolve...which you did. Some do, many don't....traditional karate has been frozen in time for years.

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Re: Something to kick around

Post  Nick Hughes on Sat Feb 23, 2008 12:23 pm

Rob,

Depends on what Karate mate. The stuff I did i.e. Zen Do Kai...in a heart beat. I attribute almost all of my fighting to what I learned under Bob and the guys. I've also run into hard core karate guys over the years who did what I call "Real Karate."

The problem is we moved into an era where the craze/fad died out and instructors were left having to attempt to pay the bills. The only way they could do that was water their stuff down to a point where the average person was willing to keep training and go after the target market which was eight year old boys (this stuff was all researched by marketing groups here in the States)

The problem is a lot of you younger guys have been exposed to that and think that's karate and it isn't. We did bareknuckle sparring in Zen Do Kai every night for years which looked like those clips without the protective gear. I had my sternum cracked during my brown belt grading and pissed blood for about 3 weeks afterwards. Black eyes, split lips and cracked ribs were just a part of regular training.

We also went to the ground all the time in sparring and our kumite included footsweeps and throws which most of the other styles didn't.

People in the States during the same time were doing it the same way. Texas tournaments for example were legendary for being blood baths despite allegedly being no contact. Our second dan grading - thirty rounds - was called the blood grading due to amount of claret typically spilled. (Interestingly enough even Zen Do Kai buckled under to concerns about being sued after a kid nearly died during from dehydration and renal failure during his 2nd dan test in the early eighties. After that they all began wearing protective equipment)

So yes, karate when trained properly, works fine but you have to really hunt to find the real deal anymore.

Nick
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Re: Something to kick around

Post  melvinfferd on Sat Feb 23, 2008 8:41 pm

arthur,
thanks for that post, very interesting training life youve had (and still now).

nick,
any footage from karate gyms that were sparring full contact, bare knuckle to the head? would be really interested in seeing it.

not sure if many have heard of it but theres a new karate tourny here that started 2 years ago ...

... no gloves, no head gear. and punches, elbows, kicks and knees to the head are ok. headbutts are also welcome Smile standing submissions are also fine. its basically the early ufc rules without the groundwork. none of the fights in the first event (2006) went the distance.

http://chaosmadmax.com/chaos/chaos_e.html

one of the official illegal techniques is "passive behavior" !!! haha

tommy,
you wrote "traditional karate has been frozen in time for years". if it wasnt would it still be called traditional? (nb for nick: i know you define traditional and classical differently Smile ). many karate gyms here in japan also train wrestling and mma. some of them as part of the program, some as separate classes. and many of the mma-only gyms have come from a background of one of the traditional arts, be it karate or judo.

rob,
you wrote: "If you look at old style boxing or Thai etc it looks shit, but these arts have progressed. You don't seem to get that in Karate it doesn't seem to be dynamic or relative to todays fighting." that may be true in your neighborhood, not in mine.

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Re: Something to kick around

Post  Nick Hughes on Sat Feb 23, 2008 9:09 pm

Melvin,

If you read what I said again mate I said looked like...in other words there was punching, kicking, headbutting, kneeing, elbows, sweeps, throws, and groundwork.

We didn't do full contact to the head (unless we were kickboxing) it was hard contact to the body and what we called touch contact to the face (some people "touched" more than others Very Happy )

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Re: Something to kick around

Post  melvinfferd on Sat Feb 23, 2008 9:41 pm

sorry man, i was referring more to your comments on the Texas tournaments. am just keen to see how hardcore they actually went.

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Re: Something to kick around

Post  BN on Sun Feb 24, 2008 4:04 am

I'd have to support what Rob Mac said about karate. It may well be that karate in Japan is going through something of a reality renaissance. If so that is great.

But we can all only go by our own experience ultimately, and my experience of karate was not good. Over here in the UK anyway, it is an art which is generally practiced by little kids whose parents use it as a kind of babysitting service. In my experience it also attracts lots of Walter Mitties who like to pretend they are Jean Claude Van Damme once or twice a week.

I am NOT rubbishing people who train properly. But most of the clubs I havd experience of here in the UK teach what cold only be called a watered down version of a fighting art. I don't know nough about ancient karate history to comment as I wasn' there. But I am assuming that in the old days of karate or Te, what they had was markedly different from what we often see today.

Also, and I know that this has been done to death, karate has not faired so well in the ring or cage. GENERALLY speaking. To be fair, Lyoto Machida and Neil Grove are Karate ka who are having success at the moment. I am referring to karate's generally poor showing in the UFC and PRIDE ect.

What I am trying to say is, if guys like me and Rob et al do not respect karate that much, it's due to our experience and observation. It's not down to style bashing or spite.

Going back to the topic of this thread ie; who should you listen to.You would not do well to listen to any of the people that I have met who were peddling karate and similar arts.

As has already been stated on this thread we need to use our critical sense. There are plenty of people teaching rubbish, and comparatively few with anything of substance to offer.

Cheers,

Dylan
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Re: Something to kick around

Post  Guest on Sun Feb 24, 2008 6:00 am

melvinfferd wrote: tommy,
you wrote "traditional karate has been frozen in time for years". if it wasnt would it still be called traditional?

Well that would be fine if Traditional karate didn't keep pushing the "excellent method of self defense" advertisement or the "deadly fighting Method." For that it would need to stay progressive.
There are a couple of systems out there that are better than others but too many are a pipe dream when it comes to fighting. Even the ones that have dropped "traditional" from their title and modernized a bit. They still waste time on endless reps of kihon and kata and the typical Japanese class structure.

On the other hand, why wouldn't it be traditional if it moved with the times? Many still have a traditional Christmas don't they? meaning they still put up a tree and open gifts in the morning, big dinner etc. Yet they have kept up with the times and gone from a real tree to an artificial one. From boring lighting to more modern lights and moving ornaments. Many things have changed to keep up with the times but still retain enough of the old to stay traditional.
Non traditional would be "Festivus" Laughing

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Re: Something to kick around

Post  melvinfferd on Sun Feb 24, 2008 6:25 am

BN, as for karate not doing well in mma. name a style that has? everyone that has done any good has had to learn a more well rounded game. and when that occurs people say, "oh they arent representing blah blah art, they are now mma fighters".

if we look at full contact sports that more closely represent the rules of karate ie k1 then many great fighters have come from traditional backgrounds eg semmy schlit, glaube feitosa, sam greco, stan longinidis and peter graham.

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Re: Something to kick around

Post  Guest on Sun Feb 24, 2008 6:34 am

I don't but the "karate never did well in MMA" argument. Karate the way it is commonly "trained" never did well...not the techniques within karate.
Karate was never trained for the ring or to last through long rounds or for that level of contact. Also karate wasn't as well rounded a fighting system. Boxers didn't do well either but no one is breaking their balls!

Typically people get into karate and it becomes their life...they don't train completely after that. The ones who do, or did, remained diverse and progressive. Those are the the ones who moved into MMA. Many MMA fighters have karate backgrounds but it is just that...."part" of their background. They chose to be more well rounded.

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Re: Something to kick around

Post  Nick Hughes on Sun Feb 24, 2008 7:14 am

BN,

My mate Gavin has put seven fighters into MMA so far. Six of them have won every match they've had and the one who lost still went the distance and lost on a decision only. Like I said, there's karate and there's karate.

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Re: Something to kick around

Post  Guest on Sun Feb 24, 2008 7:37 am

Nick Hughes wrote:

Like I said, there's karate and there's karate.

I have said the same thing for years. For many years I really believed I just had a better understanding of karate than most. I trained my karate differently and and made it more applicable to all around fighting. Zen Do kai may have done the same thing, as have others. I don't disagree with you on this. But here's the thing....why? Why does karate come from Okinawa and Japan having us believe it is this great fighting method only to have us in the West take it apart and rebuild it or combine it with other things or completely change it?

Personally I have always believed that "that" is how it was meant to be and that is how the forefathers did it. Before there were styles there were just guys learning from anyone and doing whatever. But in this day and age it is all too systematized and unchanging and the fighters feel the need to change it...to make it "better." Than most leave for better things. I myself got to a point where I decided to use "my" karate, the culmination of "all' that I knew and just move on...away from the systems. What would fit that bill? MMA right? "Mixed" martial arts. Mixed because it contains karate as well as other things. That means I practice everything but don't really have to call it anything. Some do the same thing but still continue to insist it's karate and then they give it a new name. Really if you change it and get rid of all the nonsense, add outside elements then it is only MMA isn't it? Why practice all those empty reps of air techniques (basics)? Just get out there and train; train in a way that connects to the fight. Kata? If someone has a valid application of a kata technique (haven't seen one in over 30 years of training) then just give me the damn application....why the hell do I need to carry the whole kata around on my back as well as 20 others!! At one time it may have been a good way to pas on a few techniques or to transmit information, today ...well....just make me a DVD!

So in the West I guess we don't believe in the Japanese way of training or maybe even the Okinawan model. So what about all the Asian masters, I guess we are saying they don't know what they are doing. In my experience that sounds about right.

Tommy

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Re: Something to kick around

Post  Rob Mac on Sun Feb 24, 2008 7:47 am

Nick, thanks for your reply. The main thing is that it worked for you and those you trained with which goes some way to proving it's efficacy. It's also nice to know that you wouldn't have changed your training, I unfortunately would have. I have only really started getting into fully fledged MMA in the last 3 years. When we were doing full-contact kick and thai boxing we thought that UFC was like WWF and paid it little attention. Still can't turn back time. Thanks Melvin and Nick for your replys, hope you agree that this is rapidly turning into an endless debate that we've all played out before. Cheers Lads, Rob Mac.
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Re: Something to kick around

Post  BN on Sun Feb 24, 2008 7:49 am

Nick,

Then I would contend that Gavin Mulholland is training his people the right way. I am not "style bashing" or trying to say that any who does karate can't fight ect. However I would like to know what Gavin does to train his guys for this kind of arena. Whether they train in what would typically be recognised as a karate style, utilising karate methods, kihon drilling, kata, and so on. Or whether they do MMa style training.

Melivn, regarding a style that did well? Gracie Jiu Jitsu is the obvious one. Wrestling and Shootfighting did ok as well.

For the record, I am not knocking good clubs, and good guys who know how to fight. I am against, if that's the right word, what is typically passed off as karate. Too many people attach the self defense label to things that are really anything but. Not only people who run karate clubs.
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Re: Something to kick around

Post  BN on Sun Feb 24, 2008 7:50 am

Just read the last post by Rob. I agree we've done all this before, and we are probably just going to end up going round in circles.
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Re: Something to kick around

Post  steve morris on Mon Feb 25, 2008 6:56 am

Been away from the computer over the weekend.

Actually, I think there's quite a bit more to say. I'll be back soon.

--Steve
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Re: Something to kick around

Post  524526 on Mon Feb 25, 2008 10:01 am

Bloody Nuisance wrote:Just read the last post by Rob. I agree we've done all this before, and we are probably just going to end up going round in circles.

I think this is the TMA version of the hardman conversation we had on Mick's forum.

But I agree , same shit over and over again.

I would like to point out : very easy nowadays to aquire techniques that have proven success in MMA and then pass it off as ' real ' TMA mainly to save face amongst their own kind.

To me the purest , most real karate fighter was Fred Ettish . He had real balls and courage to try and fight a cage match using what are accepted as classic karate techniques - you saw it all : cat stance , windmill blocks , reverse punch , flick front kick.

And you all saw the result , he was beaten and beaten real badly by an average kickboxer.

It wasn't his fault , he did his best with faulty tools , they let him down badly.

So the real Q is - if Karate really is so great , then how come even as a standup art , there have been ZERO karate based Lumpinee Champs ( never mind K-1 , a karate backed organisation )?

What ? no foreigners allowed ? nonsense , Dekkers came there and conquered all with his boxing based MT .

And why do not any of the current UFC champions seek out any form of TMA ? surely if the techniques are so good , a champion would seek them out as they do with boxing , MT , wrestling , BJJ etc .

Sorry no matter what anyone says , unless I see some guy using backfists , knifehands , ridgehands , windmill blocks etc to a high level of success , I will never change my mind.

Thus I will only give one reply to dissenters , as I know most of them will be religiously faithful to whatever art they follow.

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Re: Something to kick around

Post  Guest on Mon Feb 25, 2008 10:30 am

SimonLau wrote:
I would like to point out : very easy nowadays to aquire techniques that have proven success in MMA and then pass it off as ' real ' TMA mainly to save face amongst their own kind.

Excellent point. I have found it quite humorous how systems that only played lip service to kata bunkai/application in the past all of a sudden became experts in it claiming to have done it all along. This was only after grappling became all the rage due to MMA. All of a sudden kata was all about "hidden grappling techniques."
The same with ground fighting. I've been involved in martial arts for most of my life and Japanese/Okinawan karate for 30 years and it was only after the advent of MMA did these systems (mostly Okinawan) start to claim they have always been doing ground fighting. Funny...I must have missed that class Laughing

Let me head off the next post because I know what it will be. "Well Tommy I guess you trained in the wrong places with the wrong teachers..we were always doing it" Rolling Eyes

Any ground fighting that may have been done was very rudementary....soft Judo. Whatever it was it was in no way at the level of today's MMA.

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Re: Something to kick around

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