Something to kick around

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Re: Something to kick around

Post  Guest on Thu Feb 28, 2008 2:46 pm

tommy, i totally agree with that statement about the natural fighter who takes up karate, he will make it work, but for the non fighter there are better ways (like my self), i have grown up with people from primary school who naturally liked to get stuck in (and in my experience these are in the minority) and could have a scrap and then took up karate in there late teenage years and still practice until today (mid forties now) where in there youth pure strength and bloody mindset saw them through till the end, karate made them a more calmer and deadlier foe, so for anyone to say karate doesnt work in the real world are just showing there ignorace of any fighting form and obviously havent tread the real world of what they preach.,
many thanks, mick.

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Re: Something to kick around

Post  Nick Hughes on Thu Feb 28, 2008 3:06 pm

Bloody Nuisance,

More in a bit mate...just in from closing and have to leave to teach class. Just wanted to say wasn't meant to be insulting at all in way shape or form...sorry for any misconception.

Nick
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Re: Something to kick around

Post  Guest on Thu Feb 28, 2008 3:26 pm

mick s wrote:tommy, i totally agree with that statement about the natural fighter who takes up karate, he will make it work, but for the non fighter there are better ways (like my self), I have grown up with people from primary school who naturally liked to get stuck in (and in my experience these are in the minority) and could have a scrap and then took up karate in there late teenage years and still practice until today (mid forties now) where in there youth pure strength and bloody mindset saw them through till the end, karate made them a more calmer and deadlier foe, so for anyone to say karate doesnt work in the real world are just showing there ignorace of any fighting form and obviously havent tread the real world of what they preach.,
many thanks, mick.




Well I got into karate to enhance my street fighting originally. Being a Japanese style we didn't delve into kata application and worked pretty much on block/punch/kick/sweep etc. So in reality what I actually became was closer to a kickboxer that knew kata. My own personal research is what gave me a deeper knowledge and caused me to seek out Okinawan systems and how they approached training and kata as well as techniques. But I always had my own fighting experience firmly planted in the back of my mind and that always led me back to kickboxing which was more like just "fighting." From there I singled out techniques from kata or certain sequences and I devised defenses that fit my stylings and preferences. Surprisingly enough it came more from pretty basic kata than anything very advanced (which I don't believe in anyway). I think all the kata are redundant and only show personal preferences of different fighters/creators based on other kata. Now I only use "defenses" that are mine. If they can be connected to a kata, who cares. I think that's a bit like looking at clouds and saying they resemble animal shapes, you see what you want to see.

Anyway, I go with my strengths and kicking/punching/beating the crap out of someone is more my style and preference. Any clinching or locking/controlling and takedowns are a secondary defense for when I get caught up in it. Situational. I need to escape so I can get back to kicking/punching... That is where I part ways with traditional training. I probably could never be a bouncer because my answer to a wrist grab is a punch in the head! Laughing If someone puts there hands on me it is enough for me to feel they want to hurt me. If they invade my space, raise their voice, it is already enough to go to red alert. Karate generally always wanted to avoid the strike first attitude. (even though I think that is a misinterpretation of karate ni sente nashi ).

Now my argument usually focuses on the fact that there are a shit load of karate instructors out there who have no real fighting experience outside the dojo or in the ring or boxing or whatever. There are also a lot who do, but I think they are outnumbered. There are also bucket loads of black belts out there that are worthless. A lot of the form freaks get their black belts based on performance. Those trainees are just polished white belts. So where are the standards? A blue belt in BJJ can probably whoop most karate black belts. When you go train in Kyokushin (at least where I trained) they don't care if you are a sandan or yondan in another style, you start at green belt and get evaluated from there. If you're real good they may let you start at brown. They don't waver from this and that's that. Your tests are based pretty much on fighting non stop multiple bouts, 10, 20 and even 40. The instructors all have fighting experience because all of Kyokushin blackbelts (and students in general) fight and fight hard "always." If they don't they don't get anywhere. Very unlike a lot of schools that allow you to train and advance but only choose to be a "kata" man and never fight.

These people eventually become instructors who teach what they call self defense or fighting. Do you want to learn or send someone to learn from these people?

Tommy

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Re: Something to kick around

Post  Nick Hughes on Thu Feb 28, 2008 8:22 pm

Bloody Nuisance...

I'm back.

Mate, the elephant line is a joke and nothing more, pinched from a business philosopher I listen to a lot.

Someone years ago made the point the martial arts are like a bowl of fruit, and, if we took a bunch of master artists, the likes of Michelangelo, Gaugin, Van Gogh, Matisse et al, and asked them to paint that bowl, we'd have twenty different paintings. If you stood behind Matisse and looked over his shoulder you would say his interpretation was right. If you then took Gaugin's picture, but stayed in Matisses' corner, you'd say it was wrong. It wouldn't be though, because it wasn't painted from Matisses' perspective, it was painted from Gaugin's.

When you made the point about running I was only pointing out that from my perspective, I can't run like the MMA guy can, or the civilian can...I have no choice but to stay and fight...and it is THAT perspective from which I practice martial arts and why I stick with what I learned in Zen
Do Kai. If I had found a better system to deal with stuff from my perspective I would be doing it but, after boxing, Judo, Ju-jutsu, Aikido, other karate styles, etc I haven't found anything...not from lack of trying or having blinders on.

That is the only reason I mentioned the not being able to run mate...not to have a dig at anyone but to point out that some of us can't run and, practicing an art that trains to take one guy at a time, on a padded floor, who weighs the same as I do, hardly prepares me for dealing with eight armed shit heads.

Hope that clears it up. Where's Steve fooking Babbs when you need him?

Nick
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Re: Something to kick around

Post  Guest on Fri Feb 29, 2008 1:38 am

brian, i know we have been down this avenue, and you said research, but cant you just tell me your background, history and experience, i really cant see the problem, i dont want your biography just a few paragraphs explaining where you come from and your experience in the real world, many thanks, mick.

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Re: Something to kick around

Post  Rob Mac on Fri Feb 29, 2008 1:45 am

Mick, can I just but in and give you some history. Brian is an instructor of Wing Tsun as well as being affiliated with Russian combatives and KravMaga. Cheers Rob
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Re: Something to kick around

Post  Bryson Keenan on Fri Feb 29, 2008 2:02 am

Rob Mac wrote:Mick, can I just but in and give you some history. Brian is an instructor of Wing Tsun as well as being affiliated with Russian combatives and KravMaga. Cheers Rob

I hope you are taking the piss, Rob (I haven't been in here long enough to know everyone's background...)
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Re: Something to kick around

Post  Rob Mac on Fri Feb 29, 2008 3:00 am

Just alot. Wink
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Re: Something to kick around

Post  Joshua Orange on Fri Feb 29, 2008 3:14 am

SimonLau wrote:I said I would only give 1 reply to dissenters , 1 means in absolute terms.

TMA fans : please don't reply or try to convince me of anything , if you like what you do then goody for you . I don't want your respect and I am not remotely interested in TMA . Leave it at that.

Kill the thread .

I'm leaving . Have fun

lol!

Wow! I love this! - "I'm not remotely interested in TMA.' Doesn't want to discuss it, or debate, or contribute to a debate, or be open to reason. But still feels compelled to tell us all that! Mate, this is a discussion forum. If you don't want to discuss, then don't post. And especially don't post a post saying 'I don't want to discuss it'!!! It's really as easy as that!

Wink

D

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Re: Something to kick around

Post  Joshua Orange on Fri Feb 29, 2008 3:17 am

...


Last edited by Joshua Orange on Fri Feb 29, 2008 4:44 am; edited 1 time in total

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Re: Something to kick around

Post  Joshua Orange on Fri Feb 29, 2008 3:23 am

Socrates wrote:
Let´s take three of the people who have Q&A´s on this site: Steve Morris, Nick Hughes and Mick Coup. On the face of it, they are all very different: Nick does karate and combatives; Mick does combatives; and Steve does MMA.

The thing is if you look beneath the surface, you´ll find a lot of similarities:

- They´ve all trained for years and years;
- They're all really good;
- They´ve all tested themselves to the limit;
- They´ve all been in the army;
- They´ve all worked in professional security;
- At least two of them have fought in combat sports;
- They all have a wealth of real-world experience;
- They´ve all taken their strength and conditioning (S&C) seriously;
- They've all cross-trained;
- They´ve all thought deeply about what they do;
- They've all designed their own systems;
- Etc, etc, etc.

I´m sure that if you put the three of them in the same room, they´d disagree about many things, but each of them would know exactly where the others are coming from.

We might also add our absent Dave T as a fourth to the list. Clearly Dave meets all of the above criteria too. His original and favoured 'art', so far as I understand it, was a form of jiu-jitsu (and given that jiu-jitsu can change and adapt but still be jiu-jitsu but karate can't...) which he's adapted, added to, and modified down the years.

D

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Re: Something to kick around

Post  Rob Mac on Fri Feb 29, 2008 4:39 am

Couldn't remember it's name Brian, that's why I put Russian combatives! So I get a 9/10? Bri, I do however think war stories and training experience is usefull otherwise you could well be talking to someone who has absolutely no practical or training experience. I would hate to think I have wasted time discussing with people who have got neither. It's fair enough if people with little or no experience want to chew the fat, but if they want to tell me how it is, they can go .... themselves. BTW how is your chain punch coming on? Cheers Rob Mac
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Re: Something to kick around

Post  Joshua Orange on Fri Feb 29, 2008 4:42 am

Actually, I'm not of the view that this thread is deteriorating rapidy. I actually think it's been one of the best, informed, reasoned, and interesting general discussions we've had on this board. It would be a shame if the thread was closed just yet. There's a pitifully small number of people on this board given the size of the world and the importance of the general issue. Seeing a good deal of members motivated to respond repeatedly is great. Plus, the discussion has moved on well and still been faithful to the initial topic (on the whole).

Brian - Thanks for the info, I now understand a bit better where you're coming from - always difficult in face-less conversation. If you feel the use of the term trolling hurtful or offensive or inaccurate, then am more than happy to withdraw it and remove the post. I have no desire to be any of those things to anyone.

Dave

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Re: Something to kick around

Post  Rob Mac on Fri Feb 29, 2008 5:30 am

Brian, he was obviously a tosser, I've only managed 30 kos with high kicks and I am the hardest man to walk the planet. I know what you mean Bri, but I'm afraid there are certainly some armchair warriors amongst us who are good at stating names, facts, and Japanese words but I don't believe have had a fight in or out of the ring since school days. I know what you do, I know what Nick, Tommy P, BN, Steve Morris, Bryson etc, etc have done because they have said so. Without this knowledge I could be talking to a ping pong player. Is Tommy P's, or my, experience as youngster as important as yours or Nicks in the forces/doors whatever. Damn right. Cheers, did I just say 'Damn right'?
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Re: Something to kick around

Post  Guest on Fri Feb 29, 2008 5:59 am

I think there are variables here as far as experience and the scale may slide around a bit. There are boxers or other sport fighters such as MMA or wrestlers etc who have real hands on experience at fighting and fighting all out, getting hit and hitting with meaning. Then there are those who have non of that but do have hand to hand experience from security work, bouncing, street fighting, or anything of that nature, but have never entered a competition. Then you have the overlappers who are the in between guys.

The guy who is successful in the ring or cage may freeze or get scared shit when a weapon is produced or he gets hit for the first time with a baseball bat if he has never faced this type of adrenaline rush. Granted most guys getting into pro fighting have been into it on the street but I'm generalizing here to give an example. On the other hand the guy who has street experience or door work etc and has never competed may not have what it takes to go the distance in a sporting event. This is why I choose to train for the best and hope I only meet up with the middle guy at best.So fighting experience, IMO, comes in different flavors and one doesn't necessarily cross over completely into the next although it is a start....a good one.

This is where some of my arguments stem from. Because it is easier for a sport fighter (boxer, MMA, Wrestler) to take that into the street and be successful than it is for the average karate trainee to jump into the ring without extra training. You see the sport fighter only needs to know the adrenaline factor (and like I said a lot of these guys are into fighting anyway) and what they know and how they've trained will probably carry them in the street without much or any other training. The average karate Joe? He wouldn't last one round in a cage on wind alone. It is fairly common to hear a karateka claim that they don't enter the ring because what they do isn't "sport." Fair enough I understand that, they don't train to last for 3 or 5 five minute rounds of all out brawling or with rules. However if you "did" train that way, like the MMA guy, then all the "non sport" fighting would be easier. Now you would be able to do "both" instead of only one thing. Personally I'd rather be prepared. I'd rather train for fear of the worst and then hope for the best. Like I said before, in the real world it all comes down to being at the crossroads where "training meets luck." In that case I really want to have my training at its best.

Tommy

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Re: Something to kick around

Post  Guest on Fri Feb 29, 2008 7:31 am

brian, many thanks for that, much appreciated, mick.

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Re: Something to kick around

Post  BN on Fri Feb 29, 2008 8:59 am

Mick,

Mate I think it's a bit general to say that anyone who doesn't rate karate can't have much real experience, or doesn't know what they are talking about. It's usually the reverse.

Neophytes come into an art such as karate, having chosen the art that is (usually) closest to home, or otherwise the most convenient. Only after some time, if ever, do people begin to understand if what they are doing will be effective for fighting or not. Some people can never acept that fact that an art they spent years training won't serve in a real sitaution. Some others get the shit kicked out of them and that is their wakeup call.

So I would say it's the reverse of what you are saying. Usually it's the people with experience, the people who have thought, analysed, fought, lost, bled,ect who come to the conclusion that their art (in this case karate) doesn't work for them.

The guys who often rate, and indeed profit from, karate the most are the guys who are so entrenched in what they are doing they often don't look at other systems, and they often don't venture out of their box to see what the rest of he world is doing. And we musn't forget the people who make a living from "teaching." There are none so blind as those who are making a few quid, as the saying goes in the bible.

Also, after X amount of pages, often with well reasoned, well put together arguments explaining exactly why karate isn't rated, I think it's a bit facile to just say ,"oh well if you don't rate karate you don't know what you're talking about." There have been a lot of very intricate, well reasoned arguments backing up the negative point of view toward karate. And many of these points have not been adequately refuted by the "pro-karate" camp.

By the way, the guys you mentioned who could scrap and who went on to do karate sound like ,heres that term again,....Natural Born Killers. They are, by your own admision "hard" anyway, and were before they started karate. In what way does the fact that natural "hardnuts" can fight support your conjecture that karate "works?"

Over to you old chap.
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Re: Something to kick around

Post  Guest on Fri Feb 29, 2008 9:23 am

Brian S wrote:
The problem with war stories is this - they are rarely verifiable and some people will exaggerate massively. And, of course, you can end up in trouble with the law!

This is true and something I've learned to deal with over the years. I've been around this earth long enough to have a pretty good idea of what may be a load of turd. I usually just take it all in and smile...I know and they know (in their heart of hearts) so that's all that matters.

As for my experiences they are just that "experiences." I use them to direct my training and as MY reality. The only thing I ever claim is to know how things go. I know based on my experience, not on my superhero status. No where do I write that I kicked the crap out of this guy and took on 3 others or was the most feared bouncer or any of that. That has no bearing on anything. Maybe your just a big fish in a small pond! What I learned from was the losses and the mistakes, not the easy wins. I've had wins but I have also had a lot of bad losses and I draw from that. I have also been involved in a lot. I have been stabbed shot at, beaten with a bat, kicked by a group and you name it and I have also had my share of being on the winning side.

When I write it is about experience, not how I was or am invincible. I try to write truths about how shit goes down. A big part of self defense or street fighting for me, and something I don't think many consider is deception. A fault I see with many defenses is that they are waiting for something or they are reactionary. They take up "positioning" based on a specific distance or a guard/hand position etc. While I don't really disagree with that, I think that the street is too much of an unknown to almost "plan" something. Ask me what I would do in a given situation and I couldn't tell you. IMO there are no given situations and each event is slightly different and then ever changing as its happening. So my ready position is fluid and I keep moving and talking. The time to react or strike is mid sentence or when you are moving in a direction that appears to be moving away or placid...on the off beat...."deception."

But again this has been "my" experience and I make no claims of being MR. Self defense or even a good fighter....I just do what I do and it's basically for me. But on the other hand I can listen to some of the war stories and smile to myself thinking; are there really people out there listening to him and wanting to learn from him?" I'm not easily impressed, I have my own past to entertain me. I have also kept my head at seminars when the so called "guru" would want to show a defense on me and during the technique I knew that I could probably hurt him badly! These are the people who get me scratching my head and then to top it off they have big followings. It's sort of a P.T. Barnum thing. But hey...who cares...if their happy then I'm happy.

Tommy

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Re: Something to kick around

Post  BN on Fri Feb 29, 2008 9:41 am

You've hit the nail on the head there. How can anyone say what they would or would not do in a situation? You just don't know until it's happening.Your reaction will always depend upon the specific circumstances, and the circumstancs are never the same twice.

I have respect for people who admit to losing, and making mistakes. I also find them more credible. If someone's record seems too perfect it can be a bit suspicous. Not in every case, and I am not thinking of anyone specific when writing this.

I think we can learn a lot from people who have been there, and who are honest enough to be truthful about what they have experienced.
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Re: Something to kick around

Post  Guest on Fri Feb 29, 2008 9:50 am

bn,
im sorry i dont explain myself very well, what im trying to say is karate does work for some people in a live situation, ie my mate who could always fight took up karate and adapted it to work for real,and it did work , but as for me and the vast majority of people, marching up and down the dojo punching thin air is and was a waste of time because when the situation became live the adrenalin kicked in and your not trained in that, but my mate who could always have a go this was nothing new so could concentrate on certain techniques and adapt them to work, but as i said before there are better ways for the likes of me to learn, the turning point for me was geoffs watch my back that was the first time i had read someone talking about adrenal, (shitting yourself) so that was me leaving jkd/karate.
what im saying is if people say karate doesnt work at all, it does work for certain people, but for most people like me there are better avenues.
many thanks, mick.

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Re: Something to kick around

Post  paul scothern on Fri Feb 29, 2008 10:18 am

but surely those who can make karate work can make more conventional rbsd work. aren't we after the best % returns on our valuable time spent training? karate is less efficient at providing returns on time spent for the majority of people than emphiracally derived modern training systems.
unless you love it for it's own sake i would say why bother, if your target is functionality in a reasonable time frame.

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Re: Something to kick around

Post  Guest on Fri Feb 29, 2008 10:30 am

paul scothern wrote:but surely those who can make karate work can make more conventional rbsd work. aren't we after the best % returns on our valuable time spent training? karate is less efficient at providing returns on time spent for the majority of people than emphiracally derived modern training systems.
unless you love it for it's own sake i would say why bother, if your target is functionality in a reasonable time frame.

I stayed for a couple of reasons. Availability was a big one. I have a crazy schedule and my time is very limited. The availability of places to train was another factor. It was do that or do nothing. Another reason was that I enjoyed all the extra stuff that came with karate for awhile. I tend to go off the rails now and again at at times I become an angry person. I always found that my karate training and disciplining myself through the rigors of hard and endless kihon kind of mellowed me. It leveled my head so to speak. I think many of us tend to "get stuck," and just never leave. I had to bang my head on the desk a few times to kind of snap out of it. Sometimes you sort of need a debriefing!
Eventually I got tired of the extras and lost interest, they were just wasting my time. I also came across a place that changed its schedule and now I had options. With options karate moves down the totem pole. I suppose there are others out there who stayed with karate for similar reasons.

Tommy

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Re: Something to kick around

Post  Rob Mac on Fri Feb 29, 2008 10:47 am

Very good point Paul. Luckily one I don't have to worry about. Tommy, you never did say you were superman mate and you have to draw on your past experiences, it's no different than say Old Bill, ex-forces or whatever. As Steve pointed out there are guys touted as 'secret ex-super doopers' that may have never had a proper tear-up in their life. They may well have too, but for a good few years I was fighting more or less every weekend, I too have lost and won and run. But I do find it hard when people with little or no street experience try and tell me how it is. Come and spend a little time in nick and see how the scenario training goes then. Cheers Rob.
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Re: Something to kick around

Post  BN on Fri Feb 29, 2008 11:09 am

Hi Mick,

Thanks for that. We are more on the same page than I thought, as Brian S said.

Rob, I obviously don't want to be too personal,but could you tell us more about being in the nick? I mean if you were. In terms of whether you had to fight ,what you had to do in order to be lift alone, how you had to come across to others. How you survived basically.

I hope it's not an indelicate question, but I thought that as you referenced it, it would be ok to ask about. My apologies if it's not.

BN
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Re: Something to kick around

Post  Rob Mac on Fri Feb 29, 2008 11:38 am

I wasn't in for long had no probs to speak of, and it's probably best to leave it there as otherwise it starts to glorify being a young, stupid individual. Cheers ROb. By the way the ex-forces thing was not a pop at anyone on this thread.
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