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Links to UFC79

Post  Joe S. on Mon Dec 31, 2007 9:16 am

Dear Steve and crew.
Links to UFC79 http://www.watchtvsitcoms.com/fighting.php
Incredible show, please comment particularly on the wins from:
Machida
Liddell
GSP
Top top work from the above.
Cheers.
Joe S.
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Re: Links to UFC79

Post  steve morris on Tue Jan 08, 2008 5:45 am

Joe, I nearly fell asleep watching Machida v Sokoudjou, Liddell v Silva, etc. These in my book were not memorable fights, despite some of the fighters such as Lidell and Silva having had memorable moments in their careers. The hype surrounding the Machida/Sokoujou fight was out of proportion to the fight. In my book these matches werenít representative of a fight in which two guys are seriously trying to kick the shit out of each other. The fighters in general all seemed to be coasting; nobody seemed really intent on destroying their opponent, as in many of the former Pride matches or indeed some of the old UFC matches.

Maybe itís safer and more publicly acceptable version of MMA weíre seeing, and one by which Dana White will continue to popularize his version of MMA and make millions in the process. Unfortunately this is a vision which its fighters seem to have bought into, but itís not for me. Although there were some violent moments, for me there werenít enough of them, and what there were, werenít violent enough. Joe, I never watch MMA fights for their entertainment value or to get some form of vacarious experience, I analyse them. More accurately, I analyse the most violent of the exchanges taking place within such fights so as to determine those facters that are influential on who wins and who loses and why. I then objectively use this information to devise those exercises, drills, conditional/dissimilar fight training methods by which to psychologically, physiologically and physically prepare somebody to fight. I can prepare them to fight in the arena or ring, but more often I find myself training people to fight on the street or any where else their life may be threatened and they have to act instantly, decisively and ruthlesslyóotherwise they could be dead.

Iíve analyzed thousands of fights and experienced hundreds of them personally, but there are only a few (including my own) that I hold up to being representative of the real thing, and none of them was a boring slow game of chess. It is the information gleaned from these experiences that I draw on, and not from lesser representations of fighting, either my own or those of others. So when Ii say watch the fight I mean only draw on those fights in which the two fighters are for all intents and purposes trying kill each other even if they fail do so (for example, as in a sporting contest because of the rules, conventions and presence of a referee). It is only from such extreme violent representations of fights (whether in boxing, Mauy Thai, MMA, street fights on You Tube or your personal experiences) that you can get a handle on what works and what doesnít, and why, within a violent exchange.

All too often in the martial arts its masters and practitioners draw on traditions, demonstrations, overly restrictive sporting examples, or personal representations of combat that bear little or no resemblance to the reality of a fight in which an adversary is intent on kicking the shit out of you at best, and at worse, killing you. And hereís the thing, Joe. Such masters and martial arts practitioners in general never test what they believe to be true in some form of realistic dissimilar/aggressor training, because if they did they would soon find out it didnít work. They never will test it, because itís by promulgating their various arts that masters make a living, are respected as authorities, and how the martial arts are popularized through the self-esteem they give its practioners.

Now, having said all that, Iím fully aware of the claims made by karate practitioners that Machidaís wins are proof of the effectiveness of karate, or more specifically, Shotokan karate. But for me, Machidaís wins are only proof of the need to have some form of aggressor/dissimilar testing, be it in the MMA arena, the dojo, gym or by way of some serious door or security work in order to test what works best for you in a violent exchangeóand the more violent the better. For me, Machidaís wins illustrate the importance of being able to adapt your game plan and subsequently your training to an actual or envisaged opponentósomething which Machida has obviously done. Indeed, heís looking less and less like your typical robotic JKA karate man with every fight, and if more karate guys followed his example in the arena or in the dojo Iíd applaud them.

But again, we know that ainít going to happen, because itís easier to claim the effectiveness of karate by Machidaís example or that of guys like Terry OíNeill and the late Gary Spiers than by your own example as a fighter.

Well, Joe, thatís what I thought about UFC 79 and a little more besides.
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Re: Links to UFC79

Post  Joe S. on Tue Jan 08, 2008 3:44 pm

Steve.
Appreciate your comments, what I found bizarre especially from Soukudjou
was his lack of violence, which he has demonstrated in Pride and took out 2 of Brazils finest.
Your level of observations Steve far exceed my own, I now feel after reading your response that MMA is becoming something of a parody imitating a parody.
The UFC is almost verging on the Status Quo of MMA.
Do you think this is why Fedor has kept away?

Cheers.
Joe
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Re: Links to UFC79

Post  Rob Mac on Wed Jan 09, 2008 5:52 am

I was told that Fedor is keeping away because UFC won't let him pursue his commitments in Sambo, not sure however. Personally I think UFC and some MMa is becoming too bjj/groundwork dominated, I reckon that there should be a very short time limit on the floor eliminating the game of chess that often happens. Cheers Rob.
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Re: Links to UFC79

Post  Shinigami on Wed Jan 09, 2008 7:42 pm

Dana not letting him compete in Sambo is one factor, another is that Fedor says the contract Dana asked him to sign was just plain stupid in the sense that Fedor would literally not be allowed to do a single move in his fight career without permission from the UFC, if he loses they can cancel the contract, if Fedor or his team does anything that the UFC dissaproves of they can cancel the contract, etc.
In short, they wanted complete control of Fedors career and he wouldn't have been able to have the slightest bit of control.

Here's the full story:
http://www.mmapayout.com/2007/12/fedor-patently-impossible-to-sign-ufc.html

Personally I'm starting to become disillusioned with Dana and his obvious, childish bid to prove that the UFC is the 'superior brand' and to undermine all the former Pride fighters.

Though I think he was doing really well to conceal the fact that he was exploding in his pants as Chuck took the win from Wanderlei.


Btw, hi Steve, I've been following your site for the past 2-3 years.
I would very much love to come by to train but for now it will have to wait because I'm looking for a new job and the councils giving me a load of jive about rent areers and such.
I live in Oxford, my training history is that I started with 2 years of judo then 6 years of goju, though it wasn't at an official club, it was with my friends dad so I never went through any gradings or anything, but recently he's gotten ill so I haven't been able to train with him, but I have fulfilled my plans to restart judo and take up boxing, though I think I need to find a better boxing gym because when I got there and we did the circuit training I discovered I was the fittest one there which I wasn't expecting because boxings is apparently renound for it's conditioning, but I've been going their for the past 7 weeks and it's been okay, but they won't let me spar yet.
And for the past 6 years I've been doing my strength and conditioning on and off at Morris motors power lifting club as well as at home.
I'm 18, set to turn 19 in may, and am considering taking up fighting as a career choice, however absurd that may sound.

Hope to meet in the future to be awe inspired and humbled, as well as become part of an inventive, productive group and train hard.

Ps. I'm hearing alot about med ball drills that apply to ground work and other fight specific scenarios, now personally the range of my med ball experience is limited at best so I am curious about this and other things.

Daniel Townsend.
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Re: Links to UFC79

Post  steve morris on Thu Jan 10, 2008 6:47 am

Iíve read all your comments on the Fedor fight against Choi, but to me thereís something that smells about it, as do the other fights Choiís had. Maybe itís because the same Yakuza faces who were behind Pride are working behind this new promotion, which is fronted by M1-Global, FEG and Deep. That makes me suspicious. Plus, why would Fedor take a fight against a third-rater when heís contracted to Global as a premier fighter ? Sure, Choi has improved since other performances in K-1, etc., but that improvement isnít enough to put him in the ring with one of the worldís greatest fighters. Itís entertainment. Itís ĎFedor vs. The Moving Tree.í

When I look at it, from a fighting perspective, it just doesnít add up. Somethingís wrong. It looks like a worked fight from professional wrestling, but with less polish.

The professional fight game is always open to corruption. In Japan, itís heavily influenced by the Yakuza and in the States, the Mafia. Big bucks to be made in it, from the bums on the seat, the betting, and of course pay-per-view. I think fighters can be easily exploited, and sometimes they start out fighting both for the sake of the competition and for money, but somewhere down the line when theyíre looking at their bank account and it isnít quite adding up to what it could be, thereís always that possibility theyíd be open to a bribe, whether itís a direct cash offer or some other form of career incentive. In other words, ĎYou let the other guy become champion, and then it will be your turn.í

Iíd also be curious to know if Antonio Inoki is back in the mix. You know, the guy with strong Yakuza connections who took Lyoto Machida under his wing and even nicknamed Machida ĎThe Second Inoki.í Letís hope not; the guyís corrupt and corrupting. But you never know: Machida only left Inoki when his fight promotions business started to fall apart; up to then he seemed happy to be in Inokiís company. Machida then hooked up with the Vegas World Fighting Alliance run by a night club operater, and when that went bust his contract was bought by the UFC, owned by another couple of Vegas guys called Lorenzo and Frank Feritta who made their millions by way of their fatherís casino business. The Ferittas were also the ones who, after negotiating with Yakuza-connected Sakakibara Nobuyuki, bought Pride. You sometimes wonder what else they might have bought into.

All this isnít to say that guys who fight in these promotions are corrupt. I'm not meaning to make an example of Machida, it just goes to show you how you can get caught up with these guys who are smiling at you with your balls in their hand. Once you're in their company, it's hard not to do business with guys like this. That's the nature of the Yakuza and their Western counterparts.

Let's remember that there's no real grassroots amateur foundation for MMA. It's all being done at a professional level. Naive guys are diving straight in to a pool of sharks.

And thereís always the possibility that even if the fighters are straight, the referree has been bought. In fact, when you look at the Bob Sapp and Ernesto Hoost K-1 fight, thereís something definitely not right there with regards to how the ref interceded to give Sapp the victory when Hoost was perfectly capable of going on; in fact, it was Sapp who at one point looked like he was going to go down.

Iím really disappointed in what I see lately. I thought it was a great medium to explore the possibilities and potentials of fighting, but thereís something not quite right about the whole thing. In hindsight, itís obvious that the early UFC was a Gracie promotion plain and simple. That doesnít change the fact that it shook up the martial arts world, and somewhere in the mix there will always be the fights that will stand out as being the real deal. The problem now, in my mind, is trying to determine which are real and which ainít. This Fedor one isnít one that Iím going to be drawing on for information.
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Re: Links to UFC79

Post  steve morris on Fri Jan 11, 2008 7:14 am

Someone I left out with regard to the fixing of fights was Takada Nobohiko, an ex-professional wrestler and frontman for the Yakuza's fight promotions, including Pride. Takada acted as promoter, fight card organizer, trainer, and sometimes even competitor. How can you have an objectivity in a situation like that? In fact, I can't remember a fight in which Takada took place in which it wasn't obvious that it had been worked, and sometimes really badly, as in the Coleman fight. Sometimes the fights were a complete sham, or the guy he was fighting was working in first gear.

These weren't the only fixed fights I've ever seen. I've seen a lot of fights that could be said to have been worked in Pancrase and Shooto, and even within the UFC not all the fights have been Kosher. Fighters have been under the same management, fighting from the same club, were best friends, etc.

I think as long as somebody like Dana White has such a strong contractual control over those participating in the UFC, it's a situation where there are no checks and balances. It just doesn't seem right when everybody's in the same bed. You can't do anything without Dana White's blessing.

Why do guys like Inoki and Takada get away with fight fixing? I think it's something to do with the Japanese culture, in which bribes and fixing are a fact of life. When I was thinking of fighting in a kickboxing event in Japan, I was told if I wanted to get paid I would have to go down in the second round. And I've also spoken about how, at Oyama's first knockdown tournament, Lloyd Williamson told me in advance who the first three guys were going to be. Oyama was blatantly obvious in his interference, reversal of decisions, etc. in order to make that so. Even at JKA karate tournaments, particularly ones that Nakayama was referreeing, it was obvious that the loser was in actual fact the winner, but it wasn't 'his turn.'

But nobody objects, because that's the way it is in Japan.

I don't know where the UFC is going, but like I said, with one guy having such a tight control, it doesn't make for good sport.
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Re: Links to UFC79

Post  James Marshall on Fri Jan 11, 2008 8:47 am

off topic as far as fighting is concerned, but fixing is not limited to the Japanese or to fighting: http://news.bbc.co.uk/sport1/hi/tennis/7179695.stm

as to Japanese refereeing at JKA tournaments- nothing has changed since the Nakayama days. I have been at 2 major tournaments where the crowd has started to boo and jeer the referees because the biased is that blatant.
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Re: Links to UFC79

Post  steve morris on Wed Jan 16, 2008 8:37 am

James, I agree that any sport can be subject to fixing, etc. but what I'm talking about isn't something coming from the outside. It's a corruption coming from some of those key figures within the organizational structure itself.

Here's two things you might want to read.

http://ninjashoes.net/forum/showthread.php?t=35917
[url]
http://www.sherdog.net/forums/showthread.php?t=438816[/url]
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Re: Links to UFC79

Post  James Marshall on Wed Jan 16, 2008 2:56 pm

Phew, that is some in depth stuff. Makes you wonder what else goes on that you have no idea about. Its not just in the movies.
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Re: Links to UFC79

Post  Shinigami on Tue Jan 22, 2008 7:44 am

Here's a small documentary on Wanderlei's training for UFC79:

http://www.free-fights-videos.com/file/172-ufc-all-access-wanderlei-silva.html

Would you recommend anything from this Steve?
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Re: Links to UFC79

Post  steve morris on Wed Jan 23, 2008 7:04 am

There's some good training segments in there, but I think the snorkel is a little extreme. It seemed to depersonalize him, almost like he became a machine following this regime, you know, like the Russian guy in one of the Rocky movies, with all the machines and here's Rocky Balboa working out on a side of beef.

I often say it when I see guys train, they're training to be pack mules and not tigers. Vanderlei had some really great, aggressive fights; he should have stuck to the formula. If it ain't broke, don't fix it; only adjust it to who you're going to fight. And he doesn't seem to have figured out how to take the fight to Lidell.

Personally, I think he should go back to his old training regime, and I liked him better when he was less muscled-up. The guy's the Axe Murderer, the weapon's in his head. He seems to have lost touch with that in his last fight, anyway.

In terms of this 'work ethic' it's not like he's going to the South Pole. You''ve got to get through the full three rounds, but really he should have been thinking more about developing and maintaining a knockout attitude and less about just getting through. It sets the wrong impression of what you need to do.

I also think that the introduction of boxing coaches who don't fully understand the nature of the fight, fills the guy's head up with skills he doesn't really need. It becomes too technical. It's a fight.

THere were a lot of coaches in there, a lot of resources coming from every angle. I personally see the fighter himself as the main man, not the trainer(s). As soon as you start handing yourself over, I think you lose something. Don't know if that's what happened here; it's just a thought.

Sometimes with these UFC guys, the training looks like a circus. It seems to be all about the PR.

The guy's a great fighter, but the fight itself wasn't a good one, on his part or Lidell's.
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Silva x Crocop 2

Post  524526 on Wed Jan 23, 2008 6:30 pm

Steve ,

What did you think about Silva x Crocop 2 ? It'd be nice to have your comments on what I thought was a great fight .

Do you think Silva was ever capable of beating CC or was it just a case of the naturally bigger man winning ?

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=QLu1gHTUGnE&feature=related

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=mo_LstEWnzc

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Re: Links to UFC79

Post  Shinigami on Wed Feb 06, 2008 3:45 pm

steve morris wrote:There's some good training segments in there, but I think the snorkel is a little extreme. It seemed to depersonalize him, almost like he became a machine following this regime, you know, like the Russian guy in one of the Rocky movies, with all the machines and here's Rocky Balboa working out on a side of beef.

I often say it when I see guys train, they're training to be pack mules and not tigers. Vanderlei had some really great, aggressive fights; he should have stuck to the formula. If it ain't broke, don't fix it; only adjust it to who you're going to fight. And he doesn't seem to have figured out how to take the fight to Lidell.

Personally, I think he should go back to his old training regime, and I liked him better when he was less muscled-up. The guy's the Axe Murderer, the weapon's in his head. He seems to have lost touch with that in his last fight, anyway.

In terms of this 'work ethic' it's not like he's going to the South Pole. You''ve got to get through the full three rounds, but really he should have been thinking more about developing and maintaining a knockout attitude and less about just getting through. It sets the wrong impression of what you need to do.

I also think that the introduction of boxing coaches who don't fully understand the nature of the fight, fills the guy's head up with skills he doesn't really need. It becomes too technical. It's a fight.

THere were a lot of coaches in there, a lot of resources coming from every angle. I personally see the fighter himself as the main man, not the trainer(s). As soon as you start handing yourself over, I think you lose something. Don't know if that's what happened here; it's just a thought.

Sometimes with these UFC guys, the training looks like a circus. It seems to be all about the PR.

The guy's a great fighter, but the fight itself wasn't a good one, on his part or Lidell's.

I agree, I have no idea why he wanted to completely change his training.
Most noticeably, he didn't even attempt a knee in the clinch, he didn't even try to initiate a thai clinch, he looked lost whilst Liddel was doing what he should have been doing, as noticed by the mma media he wasn't as aggressive as normal which was a shame because I was really hoping he would win this if he came back on top form. It makes me wonder if he watched Chuck's worst losses, each time the major factors involved were the opponents right hand and the left side of Chuck's face where he sticks his arm out as a distraction.
Why did he leave chute boxe? and why for an important fight?

I'm not sure what's wrong with Wanderlei, he's been funny ever since the 2005 middleweight GP in which he came in looking slightly puffy/soft, possibly underweight and under aggressive and he's been like it on and off ever since.
You'll see what I mean if you look at him now and then look at him in his second fight with Quinton: http://uk.youtube.com/watch?v=sC8PcSlN69U&feature=related

But nowadays he seems drained somehow, ever since 2005...
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Re: Links to UFC79

Post  MikeB on Thu Feb 07, 2008 3:24 am

They test for roids in the States. Not in Japan, though.

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Re: Links to UFC79

Post  Shinigami on Thu Feb 07, 2008 6:11 am

The 2005 MWGP was in japan, it was hosted in the Tokyo dome and the Saitama super arena.
And they do run drug screens in Japan, just not as often as they should which is why Nick Diaz got his best victory turned into a no contest, though I don't really see how weed can give you an advantage in a fight, if you're under the influence you do not want to be in front of a world class fighter and if it's over sleep issues or something then you can easily just use nytol or tranquilizers/painkillers which I don't believe they test for in either the states or Japan (Mark Kerr).
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Re: Links to UFC79

Post  MikeB on Fri Feb 08, 2008 3:16 am

I was being facetious.

However, you are correct that testing for banned substances is more commonplace in the States than in Japan, where they seemed to selectively test ;-)

In terms of 'weed', this is more to do with staying relaxed and, potentially, numbing pain.

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Re: Links to UFC79

Post  Shinigami on Fri Feb 08, 2008 7:39 pm

Fair enough, it's just that everywhere on the net people seem to think that if you train hard enough to become a world class athlete and also happen to have little body fat then you just 'must' have used steroids Rolling Eyes

But using weed to numb pain? You'd be almost comatosed before that happened. I think it's more of a political correctness thing than anything else.

And with the testing, I do think the Japanese have a funny attitude about it, Diaz said he pretty much always tested positive for THC in the UFC and nobody said anything, so either one side is sticking to the established regulations or one side is taking advantage of the situation or covering it up, unless they simply have different standards, but then that would raise questions about why the UFC even tests for THC when no action is taken, unless Diaz is lying.

Though I wonder what the Japanese would do if Gomi had tested positive for anything and won that night, because their have been cases of fighters from Japan going to the US and testing positive for various kinds of artificial hormones which raised the questions about the quality of Japanese drug screening in the first place.
But there's always the possibility of improved drug screening due to such criticisms.
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Re: Links to UFC79

Post  MikeB on Sat Feb 09, 2008 2:23 am

Shinigami wrote:people seem to think that if you train hard enough to become a world class athlete and also happen to have little body fat then you just 'must' have used steroids Rolling Eyes

You think Silva has never used anabolic steroids? cyclops

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Re: Links to UFC79

Post  Shinigami on Sat Feb 09, 2008 12:10 pm

I'm not saying that, I'm just saying that people seem to want athletes to use steroids just so they can undermine their achievements.
Realisticly, many athletes have tried some hormonal help at some point in time, but nowadays hardly anyone uses 'steroids', synthetic human growth hormone is the thing in fashion now, steroids as the public know them are just plain outdated.
But whether Silva took them or not is always debatable, becuase he's always had a record of being in great shape he's always going to be a target for such accusations, but until it's proven it's all just speculation, but I don't really care either way, there's only so far you can be pushed fitness wise in a timed regulated fight, so steroids are arguably useless to a point, it's the training that matters, not the juice (in my very humble opinion.)
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Re: Links to UFC79

Post  BN on Sat Feb 09, 2008 1:18 pm

I agree totally. Excellent points.
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Re: Links to UFC79

Post  MikeB on Mon Feb 11, 2008 1:53 pm

Shinigami wrote: there's only so far you can be pushed fitness wise in a timed regulated fight, so steroids are arguably useless to a point, it's the training that matters, not the juice

Can't say I know much about the subject, but I was under the impression that steroids were used to increase strength / athletic performance rather than to increase anaerobic / aerobic workrate capacity.

Give me two identical guys, one who has been jabbing and the other who hasn't, and I can tell you who I'd rather fight!!

It's an interesting debate. One of the British TV channels had a documentary following a group of athletes who were subjected to a blind test to evaluate the effectiveness of anabolic steroids in improving athletic performance.

Half of the group were given small doses of anabolic steroids and the other half were given a placebo.

Their performances were measured over the course of the study, and their improvements were noted.

Those who had been given the small dose of anabolic steroids improved to a greater degree and at a faster rate than those who had been given the placebo.

That aside, the programme took an objective view to the use of steroids and noted that, back in the early 1900s, it was actually frowned upon to actively train for athletic events.

Taking time out to train was deemed an unfair advantage, in a similar way to taking anabolic steroids or any other banned performance-enhancing substance is frowned upon today.

As you rightly say, at the end of the day it is the indivdual athlete's ability and work ethic that are the pre-reqs to doing well. The supplements can only help them to improve, they won't do the work for them.

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