Open Letter to Dennis Jones re: Shikon thread

View previous topic View next topic Go down

Open Letter to Dennis Jones re: Shikon thread

Post  steve morris on Thu Dec 20, 2007 9:23 am

Hi Dennis,

As I e-mailed you the other day, Iíve been following the developing thread over on Shikon regarding ĎShould an Instructor be a Good Fighter?í and naturally when my name gets a mention with regard to natural movement and so-called similarities between myself and Steve Rowe, Iím more than interested.

Dennis, I hope the clip I sent you will help you get a visual handle on the guy with whom you have been discussing mindset and instinctive/intuitive responses when Ďdoing the businessí. You are spot on with your comments that Steve Roweís approach to martial arts and my own are like chalk and cheese. Gavinís claim that Steve Roweís approach to martial arts training etc. and my own are complementary, opposite parts of the same whole, is a fantasy that heís having. Itís wishful thinking.

Donít get me wrong. Steve Rowe is a stand-up guy, and Iíve told him as much in our meetings and by e-mail. But Iíve also told him that what he preaches and practices represents everything (as far as Iím concerned) thatís wrong with the martial arts. Sure, we may both have principle-based approaches to our respective martial art practices, and indeed some of these principles might appear to some to be similar, or even the same, due to the limitations of language in describing physical phenomena. But that resemblance is only superficial, on the level of language. For example, when Steve Rowe talks about explosive power, and the ways that one might go about enhancing it (not to mention demonstrating it in realistic combative scenarios/situations) heís talking about something a million miles away from what I mean by explosive power and how to use it within an engagement. People have just got to look at his Tai Chi combative video, which talks about his eight principles with regard to combat, and then look at my stuff up on You Tube, and youíll see thereís no similarity at all. But youíre well aware of this, Dennis.

Itís the same with our respective students: no comparison. This was obvious (to me, at least) when I attended Shi Kon with Bob Allen and Raj Saigal. These two guys, compared to Roweís students (including Gavin) were on a completely different level. And not because they were doing something that Roweís students were not familiar with, but at a fundamental level they knew what they were doing, dynamically and tactically, and why. Roweís students, in my opinion, did not. And the reason for that, again in my opinion, was that their fundamentals were flawed.

And I told Rowe as much in a conversation over the phone. At that time I was anticipating that Iíd be going back to help them revamp what they were doing, and my remarks were in line with the expectation that I had work to do to bring the Shi Kon membership along. At that time Iíd been led to believe that I was going to have an input at Shi Kon. That input hasnít materialised, but I see that my name is used to shore up discussions of martial art concepts.

That obvious difference between my students and Roweís would have been more apparent to Gavin or any other student of Steve Roweís had they visited Primal in Coventry and mixed it up with some of my guys there. How the hell Gavin can draw such a conclusion through only reading my website and attending two lessons and having a couple of conversations with me, this is beyond me. And Dennis, Iím sure itís beyond you as well.

Dennis, there are a lot of guys out there singing my praises, but failing to listen to what Iím saying. But from my experience, they only want to take on that which will support their personal views of the martial arts or that which will add to their credibility as teachers/trainers. They havenít really taken on board what Iím saying, or as is more likely the case, they donít believe that my criticisms apply to them. So no matter how many times I repeat Ďthe majority of martial artists are engaging in seriously flawed practicesí nobody is listening. And I might as well go outside and piss in the wind.

They believe in their practices and will find any way, or do any thing, that will validate what they do. Except, of course, testing what they do either in open competition or in some form of dissimilar/aggressor training. Because they know that in all probability what theyíre doing wouldnít work against a man who can really fight.

Iíve told them that Iím their enemy, and as such I will tell them what they need to know rather than (as their friends might) what they want to know. But their response has been to embrace me as if I were their friend. Maybe itís a case of keeping your friends close and your enemies closer. Or maybe theyíre just in denial. I really donít know.

None of this criticism is personal, and I remain on friendly terms with Steve Rowe and his guys. But I donít want to become part of their networking or their groups, which seem to me a mutual admiration society in which everyoneís practices are accepted uncritically.

Dennis, as you know I would really like to help these guys, but for many different reasons they donít seem to want my help. Thereís a thread going on over on Karate Underground with regards to hikite, and which was started by Tommy P on Wednesday the 14th March 2007, and after 154 replies and 19,000 views, the experts still havenít a clue what theyíre talking about.

And that, Dennis, sums it up for me.

The majority of information being exchanged on martial arts sites is complete bullshit. Very few people out there really seem to know what theyíre talking about, and those who do (like yourself) have had a wide experience of real fights through their life circumstances or professions. When I talk about real fights I mean the kind of fights that you, Mick Coup and myself have often discussed; i.e., serious violence, something which the majority of martial artists have no experience of and often canít even get their heads round.

Anyway, Dennis, hoping you and those close and dear to you have a Merry Christmas and a happy and prosperous new year. Thanks for your support, youíve stuck your neck out for me more than once and I really appreciate it.

Your mate,

Steve Morris
avatar
steve morris
Moderator

Number of posts : 293
Localisation : UK
Registration date : 2007-08-01

View user profile http://www.morrisnoholdsbarred.co.uk

Back to top Go down

Re: Open Letter to Dennis Jones re: Shikon thread

Post  Ken Fortunato on Thu Dec 20, 2007 10:54 am

steve morris wrote:

Dennis, as you know I would really like to help these guys, but for many different reasons they donít seem to want my help. Thereís a thread going on over on Karate Underground with regards to hikite, and which was started by Tommy P on Wednesday the 14th March 2007, and after 154 replies and 19,000 views, the experts still havenít a clue what theyíre talking about.


I believe that Tommy grew tired of banging his head against the KU wall.

Kenny

Ken Fortunato

Number of posts : 26
Registration date : 2007-12-20

View user profile

Back to top Go down

Re: Open Letter to Dennis Jones re: Shikon thread

Post  BN on Thu Dec 20, 2007 11:57 am

Hi Steve,

I have to say that I agree with what you said regarding the training practices.

I don't have any axe to grind, but I must say that I trained with Shi Kon for a very short time when I was a teenager and looking back , it was no better than any other mcdojo.

I was just another number. Something that I have found to be very common in various dojo. Turn up, go through the moves by rote, go hom

As has been said on various other threads, the emperor is truely naked in respect to most martial arts practices.


Last edited by Bloody Nuisance on Mon Apr 28, 2008 5:24 am; edited 1 time in total
avatar
BN

Number of posts : 2010
Age : 41
Localisation : Moscow
Registration date : 2006-08-18

View user profile

Back to top Go down

Re: Open Letter to Dennis Jones re: Shikon thread

Post  steve morris on Thu Dec 20, 2007 12:55 pm

Dennis by your post over on Shi kon it looks like the phrase I used 'I'm sure it's beyond you too' made you think I meant that you weren't up to speed, when it was intended to be the contrary. That I assumed you would be in agreement with me that a couple of lessons isn't enough exposure to my method to qualify Gavin to pass judgment.

Sorry if I got the wording wrong, the last thing I was trying to do was imply criticism of you. Quite the opposite.

All the best,

Steve
avatar
steve morris
Moderator

Number of posts : 293
Localisation : UK
Registration date : 2007-08-01

View user profile http://www.morrisnoholdsbarred.co.uk

Back to top Go down

Re: Open Letter to Dennis Jones re: Shikon thread

Post  bob on Fri Dec 21, 2007 1:43 am

The irony is that I was a bullied teenager who couldn't fight, and I needed to learn. I didn't get that at the dojo I was training in.

Bloody Nuisance,
Go and train with Steve. He will facilitate what you need.
Ken

bob

Number of posts : 102
Registration date : 2007-08-08

View user profile

Back to top Go down

Re: Open Letter to Dennis Jones re: Shikon thread

Post  Dennis Jones on Fri Dec 21, 2007 3:11 am

Sorry if I got the wording wrong, the last thing I was trying to do was imply criticism of you. Quite the opposite.


Steve thanks for your kind words...my mum, however, always called me buffalo because I was always charging around smashing and knocking things over. (Even smashed a TV once, only an hour after my dad brought it home!) And on the door, the bouncers nicknamed me 'Tunnel vision' and not without good reason! I think Steve, you being very perceptive, you might have detected in me that single obsessive gene that when it goes on a mission it unfortunately disengages my brain Laughing

Truth is always the best policy and sometimes it is hurtful, but if you're training so that you can defend yourself, it is better to be hurt by truthful words, the alternative is far more painful!

This is the link that started it off:







http://www.shikon.com/forum/viewtopic.php?t=2353

And I felt I had to illuminate the issues:









http://www.shikon.com/forum/viewtopic.php?t=2323


Steve I hope you and your family have an excellent Christmas.
And I wish you the best for 2008.

Kind Regards Dennis

Love to meet up again 'Seni' !

Dennis Jones

Number of posts : 113
Registration date : 2007-09-02

View user profile

Back to top Go down

Re: Open Letter to Dennis Jones re: Shikon thread

Post  steve morris on Fri Dec 21, 2007 3:35 am

Thanks for your posts, everybody. Dennis, that clip you refer to really says it all. It validates what Mick Coup has said about guys fighting on after gunshot wounds.

'It just seemed to make him madder,' --to the forum readers, that's what you're dealing with and that's who you need to be, at some level.

Have a look at the clip, guys, and we can talk about it. It's definitely relevant to the things we've been talking about, aggressor/dissmilar training and so on. In fact, it really goes to the heart of the whole issue of what is a martial art.

Now, a few more words to bring some clarity to the posts here and on Shikon in the last couple of days.

There seems to be some confusion as to what I mean when I say ĎIím your enemyí. That expression is derived from a Schoepenhauer quote which Patrick McCarthy sent to me, and it really rang true with me: ĎOur friends teach us what we want to know. Our enemies teach us what we need to know.í

This statement applies to me in two ways. First, it has meaning as to my role within the martial arts community. Iím here to tell you what fighting is and by association what training must be, rather than telling you that what youíre doing is fine. Second, I take the idea of the Ďenemy as teacherí right into my gym. In order to build those necessary responses to an adversary, you have to be able to replicate that adversary in training, and this training partner/adversary has to play the role of your worst enemy, not your best friend. In training.

So when I say Iím your enemy, thatís not personal. Iím not going to come and burn your house down. But Iím out to destroy what you might believe in or what you practice, and if youíre smart youíll learn from that. I want to teach you, but Iím not going to placate to what you want. Iím only going to give you what you need. And I can do that in a safe way.

When I ask people to empathise, I want them to pick up on my violence. Whether you like it or not, whether it comes naturally or not (and most importantly for you, if it doesnít come naturally, you need to have somebody like me to take you there psychologically). Ken Milling knew that when he sought me out, and as a psychologist he understood exactly what I was talking about. He had trepidations about even coming to me; he wasnít choosing me because I was a sympathetic character that he could relate to, but because he recognized I had something that he needed, and it would appear that I was able, in a civilized way, to give that to him. Without brutalizing him in any way.

Last year at this time, I was embroiled in the Karate Underground fiasco and Steve Rowe came in and picked up the ball. And I was grateful for that, and I still am. But the fact that Steve Rowe and I met and got along as human beings doesnít change the marked difference between our thinking, objectives, and practices as martial artists. I told Steve Rowe directly (and if youíre reading this, Steve, you know that I did): I wonít rest until the entire martial arts system as it stands collapses. Iím out to destroy what you do. Thatís what an enemy is all about.

Everybody has their own point of view as to what the martial arts are about. Some guys believe that representations such as this clip are accurate portrayals of reality. If this is anybodyís Ďalternative point of viewí then theyíre welcome to it.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=v2dSzgRSNN0

Now hereís something a little closer to what my experience of reality is, both the agony and the ecstasy:

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=KYMJ4I5C2O4

You guys have got to really realise that to me, this is a serious business. Itís not recreation, itís not religion, itís not about marketing or appealing to what people enjoy. Itís for people like Bloody Nuisance (who posted yesterday), that walk in the door wanting to learn for real how to handle themselves with regard to real violence. Iím not going to pat them on the head and give them a nice, easy option. That would be selling them short. But equally, Iím not going to abuse them, beat them up, or tear them down. Iím going to build them up for real, not with illusions of self-esteem, but the real thing which comes by challenging, punishing training that targets the individual at the level he is, taking him to the level where he needs to be.

Thatís my job as a trainer.
avatar
steve morris
Moderator

Number of posts : 293
Localisation : UK
Registration date : 2007-08-01

View user profile http://www.morrisnoholdsbarred.co.uk

Back to top Go down

Re: Open Letter to Dennis Jones re: Shikon thread

Post  Luciano Imoto on Fri Dec 21, 2007 4:47 am

Thanks for your posts, everybody. Dennis, that clip you refer to really says it all. It validates what Mick Coup has said about guys fighting on after gunshot wounds.

'It just seemed to make him madder,' --to the forum readers, that's what you're dealing with and that's who you need to be, at some level.

Have a look at the clip, guys, and we can talk about it. It's definitely relevant to the things we've been talking about, aggressor/dissmilar training and so on. In fact, it really goes to the heart of the whole issue of what is a martial art.

Please Mr. Morris, give us the link to this clip.
avatar
Luciano Imoto

Number of posts : 107
Age : 44
Localisation : Brazil - S„o Paulo city
Registration date : 2007-08-07

View user profile http://www.aikidoimoto.org

Back to top Go down

Re: Open Letter to Dennis Jones re: Shikon thread

Post  steve morris on Fri Dec 21, 2007 4:50 am

It's in Dennis's post, but here's the direct you tube link

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=TbyFnrtUtJQ&feature=related
avatar
steve morris
Moderator

Number of posts : 293
Localisation : UK
Registration date : 2007-08-01

View user profile http://www.morrisnoholdsbarred.co.uk

Back to top Go down

Re: Open Letter to Dennis Jones re: Shikon thread

Post  Sponsored content


Sponsored content


Back to top Go down

View previous topic View next topic Back to top

- Similar topics

 
Permissions in this forum:
You cannot reply to topics in this forum