Trapping - does it work in the street?

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Trapping - does it work in the street?

Post  Katsumoto on Tue Aug 29, 2006 2:29 pm

For those who have learnt trapping as part of their martial art and have been in various street encounters....do you think trapping works in the street? Is it worth devoting the many hours to it to become proficient?
Or is it a nice idea best left to the dojo/training hall?
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Re: Trapping - does it work in the street?

Post  peterM on Tue Aug 29, 2006 4:03 pm

I'll believe it when I see it.

I don't think that it works against anyone with decent hands but on reflection as you might not get that on the street perhaps it does work albeit in a limited way.

No, I wouldn't spend hours training it.

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Re: Trapping - does it work in the street?

Post  Jeff Menapace on Tue Aug 29, 2006 4:04 pm

Before we say it doesn't work, I think we need to agree on a definition of 'trapping'
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Re: Trapping - does it work in the street?

Post  Joshu's Dog on Tue Aug 29, 2006 4:08 pm

Jeff - what would you propose?

I was thinking along a similar line - some principles of trapping work, but the extensive flow of a chi-sao lap-sao drill wouldn't happen.

JK
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Re: Trapping - does it work in the street?

Post  Guest on Tue Aug 29, 2006 4:09 pm

Now that is very true. I see these guys practice what I refer to as "fancy trapping", like many of the Wing Chun drills. They say it works, and I say it doesn't.

But then they quote all kinds of moves, including ground grappling, and then say that these guys are "trapping" too. So they kind of change the definition!

I could invent "Papping", and make it involve training with pom poms...... When people laugh at the moves with regard to fighting, I could then draw parallels between my ppom pom moves and boxing punches..... Hey Presto! Boxers "prove" that papping works!

Now I know that sounds daft. But that is the kind of mental leap that some people make.

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Re: Trapping - does it work in the street?

Post  Dave Turton on Tue Aug 29, 2006 5:28 pm

I use a term called 'Jamming' (nothing to do with music).. wherebye an arm may be momentarily jammed into one position to prevent its use.. thats the nearest I have used 'trapping' for real

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Re: Trapping - does it work in the street?

Post  Richard Grannon on Tue Aug 29, 2006 6:17 pm

i have used trapping in the street

i don my lumberjack shirt and deer hunter hat and canoe down the old kent road hunting for beaver...

and singing in french... chicks dig it, but i smell a bit

speaking of which has anyone seen "The Hunted" that has soom cool fight scenes that use a bit of fast silat type trapping

ITS ALL DOWN TO YOUR FEET

people who spend the time doing "fancy trapping" as brian calls it, never move the bloody feet, stay straight spined and slightly lean away from each other, much in the way 8 year old girls play "patty cake"

if your feet move forward towards the enemy and your opponents feet move u might get a few little mini slaps in there but i couldnt be arsed making a style out of it!

i personally think the specific objective should be to twat the person in the head with a hand or an elbow, shoving the arms out the way might be part of that

in silat they do a thing where they slap fuck out of your arms really fast, but that isnt really a "tan sau-pak sau-lop sau- bong sau" thing

thats a "oh fuck my arms in a propellor blade" thing lol!
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Re: Trapping - does it work in the street?

Post  NeilJ on Tue Aug 29, 2006 6:29 pm

richard grannon wrote:

i personally think the specific objective should be to twat the person in the head with a hand or an elbow, shoving the arms out the way might be part of that
:

Nice!! Couldn't agree more
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Re: Trapping - does it work in the street?

Post  Guest on Wed Aug 30, 2006 2:49 am

That is exactly part of the poroblem. The people who train "trapping" are unconciously cooperating with each other.

They stay at the required distance and keep their torsos erect. That is the way they were shown, so that is what they are going to do.

But it all goes out of the window when some lunatic charges in like a train.

But their trapping games "work", as they get better at the game.... they just don't realise the limitations of what they are doing.

It's a bit like training for soccer with a balloon. I bet you could develop some great skills.... But they won't be relevant when there's a real ball, and Roy Keane coming at ya.

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Re: Trapping - does it work in the street?

Post  Jan on Wed Aug 30, 2006 5:28 am

From Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia

In violence and martial arts, Trapping refers both to a "Combat Range" and a type of technique to immobilize an opponent in such a way that they cannot get away and are still suceptible to very close range striking.

Trapping range is reached when two fighters start out in boxing or Punching range, where the majority of the punching takes place. The two fighters next get into a clinch where they are both too close to punch effectively. It is at this range where hand immobilization, knee strikes, elbow strikes, headbutts, and foot stomps take place. While in the trapping range, fighters utilize forward pressure as much as possible while striking.

This makes defense against these strikes very difficult as the defender is constantly being forced back away from his opponent. Trapping is usually accomplished by tapping an opponents limbs (usually the hands or arms)and following up with short range strikes. The trapping range is very closely related to Clinch fighting.


If it just said trapping a limb(prefrably the strong one) so you can whack them that would be a different matter.

Gunting works but you'd only really do it when you couldn't hit them in a better target like the neck or head. Is it worth spending hours perfecting? That's personal choice I guess

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Re: Trapping - does it work in the street?

Post  Richard Grannon on Wed Aug 30, 2006 9:12 am

Gunting works but you'd only really do it when you couldn't hit them in a better target like the neck or head. Is it worth spending hours perfecting? That's personal choice I guess

only if you've got hours to spare!

i see this as where my rbsd/selprotection training tips over into just martial arts for the fun of learning new stuff

if youve only got an hour, spend the time just getting really good at hitting the head and neck

... maybe when that gets boring, play with twatting them in the bicep then in the neck... dont know why, but to me it makes the neck/head shot feel worse if its just bounced off my arm!

guntings arent really trapping though are they so im kind of going off on a tangent... which is most unlike me... have ever noticed how its only ever white guys who play hip hop really loud in their cars?... scratch
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Re: Trapping - does it work in the street?

Post  John B on Wed Aug 30, 2006 10:11 am

II wondered how long it would take for this old chestnut to surface!

As an Ex Wing Chun man, having trained in WC for five years under an Ip Chun certified instructor, I formed my own ideas about trapping, much of which is echoed in the writings of both Dan Inosanto and Paul Vunak (JKD).

II would define a trap as ‘temporarily restricting the opponent’s movement’ in order to;
a) land a hit / grip
b) prevent a hit / grip from landing on you.

The CONCEPT is not unique to WC, JKD, Kali, Silat or Tai Chi Chuan (the arts that have specific energy drills), it can be found in western boxing & thai boxing (tie ups) and also wrestling, with Underhooks, overhooks etc. A good Judoka can restrict your movement & nullify your attacks purely by getting a good (appropriate) grip on you Gi.

The bong / tan/ fook shapes you see in chi sao are the shapes wing chun uses to receive energy and are SPECIFIC to the wing chun structure (square on stance, hands on centreline). Any deviation from these shapes in chi sao will result in you getting hit.

If you move or spar in a different structure, eg western boxing (45% stance, hands protecting jaw) then these shapes will not work without significant modification.

Dan Inosanto said: “In training we do 95% trapping, 5% hitting, In a fight we may do 95% hitting, 5% trapping”

Paul Vunak said “anything that is not directly ballistic (eg punch, headbut, kick etc) is incidental, if not accidental”

Basically, if you throw a punch (or someone punches you), there are three possible outcomes;
a) punch lands on target
b) punch misses completely
c) Punch connects with something, but not the intended target (eg arm ,shoulder etc.)

Under conditions a & b the attack would be sustained with further punches, elbows etc etc. Condition ‘C’ is where chi sao comes in.
Chi Sao as a DRILL attempts to teach you how to flow around any obstructions, and is designed in such a way as to allow continuous motion, getting hundreds of repetitions in a short space of time.

If you want to develop your left hook, you need to do hundreds of reps on the heavy bag / focus mits.
If you want to develop your throws, you need to do hundreds of reps in randori. This is not what would happen in a fight, it is simply a method of DRILLING a technique.

Similarly, chi sao is not an attempt to reproduce a real fight; it is a limited DRILL which SPECIFICALLY aims to develop hand sensitivity.

Brian, I have heard your argument before about upright positions, grappling etc. but with respect, I think you have got the wrong end of the stick. As I said, chi sao is not really a full on fighting exercise, and hence you could argue that it has limitations.

You could say that punching the heavy bag is a bad drill, because you could run up behind the guy & suplex him while he is punching, or that using the speedball is no good because it does not incorporate kick defence?

As a wing chun stylist the priority is always to aggressively drive forward, hit, hit, hit (& then hit a bit more), if for whatever reason your opponent stops your punch or covers up, then hopefully you can flow around his arms & maintain your attack until the threat is no more.

You do not ‘try’ to trap someone – you ‘try’ to take their head off. This may result in you trapping or it may not.
If you think about it, a hard strike to the jaw is the best ‘trap’ of all – after all, an unconscious opponent has pretty restricted movement!! Wink

Incidentally the main wing chun ‘trapping’ techniques and their translations are as follows;

Lap sao / pulling hand
Gum sao / pinning (jamming) hand
Jut sao / jerking hand
Pak sao / slapping hand

There are others, but these are the mainstay.

If in training, you find yourself pulling, jamming or slapping your opponents arms, then you are already using trapping (although it may not look like wing chun).

Does trapping work? Yes & no
Do punches work? Yes & no
Do throws work? Yes & no
Etc..etc…

If it works for you then use it, if it doesn’t, then don’t!!
[/b]
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