Todays traditional martial arts...

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Todays traditional martial arts...

Post  Les Turpin on Sat Sep 08, 2007 7:32 am

hi again Steve Very Happy

its been a long time since i did a seminar with you Steve, have your views on traditional arts pretty much stayed the same uptil now ? what you teach in MMA, does that hold any element of what you have learned from people other than your personal experiences in combat ?

or do you have more tolerence for the Trad guys and girls these days?
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Re: Todays traditional martial arts...

Post  steve morris on Sat Sep 08, 2007 9:17 am

This is a question which is very difficult to answer in simple terms. But I'll be shedding some light on where I'm coming from with regards to the traditional martial arts in a reply to Jon Law's question about animals.

I don't want to go over the same ground twice, and in general as the Q&A develops you'll see that I'm giving you different pieces of the puzzle in different places. Sometimes an answer to one question can also refer to other questions or be an indirect response.
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Re: Todays traditional martial arts...

Post  Les Turpin on Sat Sep 08, 2007 4:53 pm

ok steve, thanks....

i do understand that some of the answers you give only cover a fraction of how you want too, need too, put forward your experiences and teachings.

i read Johns post about animals and it prompted another question ......

... why should i look at the way animals move in any given situation that would help me in a combat situation, we have 2 arms,2 legs, a brain. and our movement is probably different to a lot of animals movements Very Happy. is it not enough that we try and learn from our own physical attributes or limitations how we can hurt an attacker if we have the right or ' natural' survival mindset ???
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Re: Todays traditional martial arts...

Post  steve morris on Mon Sep 10, 2007 4:35 am

That will be in the other post too.

All I can say, Les, is that from my experience, animals don't lie!

--Steve
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Re: Todays traditional martial arts...

Post  Les Turpin on Mon Sep 10, 2007 12:28 pm

thanks, looking forward to it Smile
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Re: Todays traditional martial arts...

Post  Rob Mac on Mon Sep 10, 2007 1:38 pm

The thing about animals I find amazing is their ability to to turn into a ferocious fighting machine at the blink of an eye and then return to the their normal state just as fast. Erle Montague has written alot on this subject, and like him or hate him, it makes interesting reading. He says that because humans obviously have feelings/consciousness that they find it hard to access that part of the brain that we all have, that reptile brain, thats allows us to tap into something primal, something we don't need to use in everyday life. I was told not to fight like an animal, as in imitating it's style, but to react like an animal. When you see a dog, like mine for etc, going into attack mode it really is quite amazing. I've got a little/medium size Spanish terrier mix type thingy and he terrorises dogs twice his size because of his extreme ferocity and body language. He changes from family dog to savage so quick when he sees another predator, and then swithes off again and shits all over my garden, or pees up the wall or whatever. The epitamy of this is of course reptiles who strike(snakes in particular) with such venom ,speed and then slope off and go about their business. React like an animal I say. Cheers, I hope that made sense, Rob.
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Re: Todays traditional martial arts...

Post  Nick Hughes on Tue Sep 11, 2007 2:46 pm

Rob,

I'm eagerly awaiting (or should that be eagley?) for Steve's other post. I respectfully take a different viewpoint (nothing wrong with that by the way or it wouldn't be much of a forum) but aren't we at the top of the food chain?

I can go to any zoo and see a collection of wild beasts that we outwitted and caught. I can go to a hunter's house and see the trophies mounted on the walls.

The last snake I encountered I picked up and moved to my mate's stable so it could go after rats - and, despite him being none too happy about my moving him - I still picked him up and moved him without any effort on my behalf.

Steve, if what I was told about him, is incredibly gifted when it comes to horses...that's a beast that outweighs men tenfold and yet we harness their energy and control them every day. My mate's wife is one hundred ten pounds and her horse "Colorado" is about 1,500 pounds...she rules him like he's nothing.

Now, am I going to win a fight with a grizzly bear one on one and my not being armed? Probably not, but I don't see how that helps me the next time I'm fighting someone. I'm not a grizzly and I don't have its attributes.

Still, I'm open to new information all the time...and if anyone can provide it, it will be here in this forum I suspect.

Nick - still at the top of the food chain - Hughes Smile
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Re: Todays traditional martial arts...

Post  Guest on Tue Sep 11, 2007 3:13 pm

You see, now I interpret this another way. I take it as learning from , in a way that doesn't mean "copy" them. What hit home at first was the dog example how his whole body goes into every bark. I was able to relate to that because of my dog. The little runt comes completely off the ground when he barks. To me that is internalization. I've used that while punching....the whole body. I'm not trying to be like the dog I'm just wondering how he gets so much into his technique. The same happened for me when i watched the clip Steve posted with the Cheetah (or whatever cat it was) and his maneuvering. Whole body movements.
So I look at some examples and think about how I might be able to use my own body and its attributes in a similar fashion. I don't use these things all the time or have changed over to a new way of fighting, but I have adapted these tecniques into my training and have made them part of the whole. More tools.



Tommy

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Re: Todays traditional martial arts...

Post  Nick Hughes on Tue Sep 11, 2007 4:20 pm

Brian,

But surely we haven't just surpassed them mentally...we're gifted physically in that we can manufacture items to control them such as cages, guns, cattle prods, reins, stirrups, bridles, barns, doors, collars et al.

Do I get to pick the course that I race on? How about up the side of a cliff face or down a class five rapid...how about over an obstacle course?

Besides, fighting people isn't only a physical game is it...it's also one of mental ability/agility.

PS: My horse shot himself...so I had to break his leg Very Happy

Nick
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Re: Todays traditional martial arts...

Post  Nick Hughes on Tue Sep 11, 2007 4:36 pm

The little runt comes completely off the ground when he barks. To me that is internalization. I've used that while punching....the whole body.

Tommy, do you mean like this? 'cause he's already doing it and I bet he's not doing it copying a dog. Athlete's have been putting everything they've got into everything they do since time immemorial.


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Re: Todays traditional martial arts...

Post  Nick Hughes on Tue Sep 11, 2007 4:39 pm

another example of a human athlete putting his entire body into it...




Note bene: the little runt has come completely off the ground. Terry O'Neill used to do this as a training exercise with dumbells...I'd rather learn from him how to hit hard from Terry than your dog...sorry. Very Happy
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Re: Todays traditional martial arts...

Post  Guest on Tue Sep 11, 2007 4:59 pm

Nick Hughes wrote:


Actually no, that's not what I mean . Nice try though Very Happy

I'm not even saying it's nothing I wasn't doing before. I always liked to sort of launch my body into a shot. Ever see Mike Tyson punch? So even when I did karate type punches my rear leg thrust would send my whole center foreward and launch my front foot forward. Almost like a drag racer popping a wheelie from the force of the thrust.

But the dog thing just flipped a switch and gave me another angle as far as whole body involvement. Just another twist on doing the whole body thing for short distance punching (for me) and feeling it right down to your feet. Shit, I'm not sure if I'm even doing what Steve is advocating! But it sure is what "I" got out of it. When I watched the dog bark and saw that it wasn't just sound, that his whole body was involved (and not by throwing his weight)....well it just sparked something. Maybe a new approach to what I was already doing? A different understanding of it. A way to aid in doing it at a closer distance for shorter quicker cumulative punches?

Actually I like the second photo of the athelete tossing the ball./weight.
He must own a dog Smile

Actually, that's not exactly what I mean anyway. Not in relation to the punches.
Tommy


Last edited by on Tue Sep 11, 2007 6:03 pm; edited 2 times in total

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Re: Todays traditional martial arts...

Post  Nick Hughes on Tue Sep 11, 2007 6:28 pm

Bri,

I don't need equipment to do obstacle courses...





I'd like to see the horse do this one lol!

Nick

PS: PM inbound
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Re: Todays traditional martial arts...

Post  Nick Hughes on Tue Sep 11, 2007 6:31 pm

Or this...the actual Legion Commando obstacle course I went over every day for 3 damned weeks in Djibouti





Good luck Nellie

Nick

PS: Yes, it's an American soldier going over it. They're based in some of our old bases out there during the current conflict.
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Re: Todays traditional martial arts...

Post  tilimangro on Wed Sep 12, 2007 1:09 am

personally i think the thing with animals that we can learn from is that all their movements are precise and each movement has no other purpose
ie they dont develop bad posture or they dont walk a certain way because they look cool doing it,it fulfills a requirement,most likely economy of motion and highest physical efficiency
we as a species have "unlearned " how our bodies work and how to utilise the whole body in every moment of life hence so many people with back problem etc from walking and sitting badly,animals cant/dont do this.
like the startled deer it drops down first to put every ounce of its self into bounding away from the attacker/predator
we may well be able to do thing s on more planes than most singular animals a nick is suggesting but the few ranges/planes they work on their output is superior to ours because the arent self concious in their movement imho

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Re: Todays traditional martial arts...

Post  Rob Mac on Wed Sep 12, 2007 6:35 am

Nick, I certainly won't be going to the zoo and studying animal life! I see your point, and it's a good one, but wouldn't it be true that we have lost alot of survival ability(generalisation) as we no longer feel the threat of wild nasty beasties. I think that some people are closer to 'the source' and can turn wild and savage (animalistic)at the drop of the hat, and others that are more civilised can get their heads kicked in and not fight back. Mellisa soalt(sp?) made a good point about this when re-counting her near rape ordeal, she wrote that she litterally felt like an animal as she kiced shit out of her would be attacker. So I don't believe that animals can do the things we can, of course not, but in the agression stakes I think there is something to learn. Cheers Rob.
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Re: Todays traditional martial arts...

Post  JonLaw on Wed Sep 12, 2007 11:08 am

Rob Mac wrote:So I don't believe that animals can do the things we can, of course not, but in the agression stakes I think there is something to learn. Cheers Rob.

indeed. The all out attack that animals produce is worthwhile observing and learning from. Like Tommy P, i got a lot out of watching dogs bark, involving a whole body action, and the cheetah clip Steve used on his site is another excellent example of whole body action.

On a lighter note and nothing to do with why we should onserve animals but vaguely related to traditional Matrial Arts check the link below

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=kSDzWm64NGk&mode=related&search=

hmmmmm

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Re: Todays traditional martial arts...

Post  Guest on Wed Sep 12, 2007 12:58 pm

Hey listen, with all due respect. I have nothing against what anyone does and I truly learn from everyone. That's just my thing "learning." Shit, I was teaching since 1989 and I gave that up within the past year to learn more...it's what I prefrer....training! So with no disrespect to Steve, Nick, Mick, John , Lee , or Dave or any of the self defense gurus, "I do my own thing." And I question all that I see and read. But I do see merit in certain things and I "absorb them." I am skeptical of all and a believer in me. But I will not disrespect Steve and bring this into his forum making it about me. Most are developing ways to combat the common threat or street thug. Well I am that guy, the street guy, reformed but still learning about "what you want to do to "ME." And developing ways to counter that. That is how I learn self defense.....from the top down. The animal theory was something I could get my head around. Some of the other SD nonsense I read on the net makes me giggle. This isn't the place to discuss my philosphies so with respect I will leave it at that. To each his own.
I guess that in "Traditional MA" that is why there are so many styles.

Maybe allot of things I read I have already been doing all along. But sometimes I may not have even known it or have a valid way of explaining it. Examples ( such as the animal points) sometimes put things in perspective and offer another understanding of certain fight aspects or things you do but never know why or how.

Just my opinion

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Re: Todays traditional martial arts...

Post  steve morris on Thu Sep 13, 2007 12:01 am

Leaving aside the topic of animals for now, because I will be doing that in some depth on another thread, the photo of the assault course brought this to mind.

And I'm crossing threads again, but here's something that REALLY impresses me.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=WEeqHj3Nj2c

Something like this would be a great supplement to martial art training. To do this, you gotta get out of your box and look around and see what other guys are doing in this world.

And here's something else you could take inspiration from as a martial artist.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=fyMasVRj4KI
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Re: Todays traditional martial arts...

Post  bob on Fri Sep 14, 2007 4:28 am

Great clips Steve, amazing!!

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Re: Todays traditional martial arts...

Post  MJD on Fri Sep 14, 2007 4:52 am

I'd love to see a horse complete that one!
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Re: Todays traditional martial arts...

Post  steve morris on Fri Sep 14, 2007 5:35 am

Like I said, I'll get round to replying to this one. Meanwhile, let's keep the horses off the obstacle course--whatever that's got to do with the fucking price of fish I don't know.
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Re: Todays traditional martial arts...

Post  Rob Mac on Fri Sep 14, 2007 7:15 am

This animals thing has been taken right out of context, obstacle courses, Fish, Deer,, YOU'RE ALL CRAZY I TELLS YA, CRAZY!!
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Re: Todays traditional martial arts...

Post  Luciano Imoto on Fri Sep 14, 2007 7:54 am

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=nLtlHTAhUdY
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=BeXkzIcwFag&mode=related&search=

More Deer Twisted Evil
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Hqpwd2wdEdI

Sorry guys, I don´t resist this topic jocolor
Tchao!

P.s.: and I agree with you Rob Very Happy
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Re: Todays traditional martial arts...

Post  steve morris on Fri Sep 14, 2007 8:47 am

Look, I was asked a serious question. To which I intend to give a serious answer. That's why it's taking me so long.

All this bullshit coming up on here is exactly the reason why I've always stayed off forums.

If it carries on, I will simply delete the posts.

If you want to play around, take it somefuckingwhere else.

Thank you.

Steve
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