Impressed?

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Re: Impressed?

Post  Luciano Imoto on Thu Sep 13, 2007 7:29 am

Great Mr. Morris!
You really have a big and open and fresh vision my friend!
Maybe I discover your "youth secret"...

I train Parkour in Brazil last year with some friends in my neighbourhood too. Some Parkourīs movements like the rolls and jumps improve my skills and include can save my skin if I will need to run 100 meters and jump a wall in city

"Fight or fly" reflex reaction...

Jokes apart, see David Belle (today with 34 years old) performance:

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=rekmYbFRbK0
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=YNvdSemZYCI&mode=related&search=

And about the "Street Dancers", I imagine this guys putting punches, kicks and takedows into that freak (and unexpected) movements in fight affraid
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Re: Impressed?

Post  Julian on Tue Sep 18, 2007 8:04 am

Steve,

regarding this sentence

And thatís one of the things Sanchin should teach you

Which are the other things Sanchin should teach?

(Sorry, if I get something wrong here)

In Sanchin there's the shaking oscillating moves, the shoulder-knee alignment, the upward energy (extensor thrust), probing step, the wegdge with the arms to deflect yourself, the withdrawal reflex etc.

Also some point which interest me ist the Pu-Tim-Tun-Tau principle seems like the startle reflex and the shaking of the body.

But finally Steve, you are able to explain the principles behind it. So your students can adapt the principle.

Ha, just the other day I found an old kata book of mine and I thought about the old time warriors comming back from war. These guys which were suscessfull and enjoyed the killing but now it was over they maybe done some shadowboxing to let the aggression out in some way. Then some other guy with no experience in fighting comes along and ask him: "Hey, what are you doing. Can you show me?" and the warrior shows him some of his techniques and the non-fighter takes the free shadowboxing and coreographed it in some way so he don't forget it. Than add a little of the peak-shift effect, you explained on your website Steve and voila... you get ... bullshit. Of course if you have a fighting mindset you can make it work again in some sense, because if you are a natural fighter you using already some of the principles and concepts which determines the winner. Yeah, just a thought.

Best wishes
Julian
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Re: Impressed?

Post  steve morris on Tue Sep 25, 2007 5:09 am

YOu're exactly right. YOu can't capture the experience of a fight in a kata. THat has to be put in through some form of live exchange, either actual encounters or the realistic replication of encounters.

If you're going to practice kata, you've got to be aware that there's a big element missing: in fact, the most important element of all, which is combative experience. Because on the basis of that, you will either adapt the kata to those combative experiences or recognize a move or sequence as being something that you've also experienced in a fight.

One thing that you mustn't do is to arrange the conditional fighting to fulfill a kata. That's completely ass-backwards.

The pu tim tun tao is float-sink-swallow-spit, and what's more important rather than the tactic is finding the dynamics to support it. Particularly with the sudden and violent displacement of weight (up, down, forward, back, left, right) and the way this energy is translated in different directions varies from one animal system to another. As well as the hands which express it.

Now, if you want to talk about Sanchin that's going to be a huge one--that's a book--I can't do that today. Sanchin is fundamental to fighting, psychologically, physiologically, technically/tactically, all of those things. But in order to use it in a contemporary environment, you'd have to adapt it, and it for me what was more important about the Sanchin was the 'why'. Exploring what were the reasons for doing Sanchin. ANd then, once I understood those reasons, I didn't need the Sanchin.

Because of its ambiguity, it allowed me to be involved in a process of finding out everybody's interpretation of Sanchin, matching it against my sense of reality, and distilling from that what I believed was essential to the fight. So my Sanchin, the one that everybody talks about, is not the one I was taught in Japan or Okinawa. I arrived at it by a creative process.

With kata, much of it is ambiguous. In the West we have shadow fighting, and it would make more sense, based on the realistic experiences of others or yourself, to create your fighting imagery from that. And what you describe about peacetime training, or when duelling might not have been as prominent, that's a real possibility. movement could become idealized notonly on the part of the master but also on the part of the student.

There's a saying that Sanchin isn't Sanchin unless it's tested. But often the test is done on the assumption that what is being tested actually works in the fight. But we don't know that. The only way you really test it is in a fight. So whatever the stance, footwork, the alignment, the bridging hands, the shock power development, etc., psychological state of mind, all those things, ability to take shots, all have to be tested in a real environment. Not an artificially contrived one.
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Re: Impressed?

Post  Julian on Tue Sep 25, 2007 5:23 am

Thank you for the reply.

I've read elsewhere a nice quote about Sanchin:

San chin is a vehicle, after you get to your destination; there is not need to lug it around on your back. San chin has many gears, no need to get stuck in first gear, not when you've got a ten-speed.

I think it's says much about it.

Cheers
Julian
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Re: Impressed?

Post  Guest on Tue Sep 25, 2007 6:05 pm

steve morris wrote: So whatever the stance, footwork, the alignment, the bridging hands, the shock power development, etc., psychological state of mind, all those things, ability to take shots, all have to be tested in a real environment. Not an artificially contrived one.


This reminds me of a guy I used to know who trained his students to take solar plexus shots. They would partner up and start out punching lightly with the recipient controlling the impact by either saying harder or lighter. Over time they would build to taking a pretty good shot. I never could understand this...it was kind of weird to me.

Anyway, they could all take a pretty good shot, especially the instructor.
But that only worked while standing there prepared; it didn't work while sparring. You can beat a good set up!!

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Re: Impressed?

Post  steve morris on Wed Sep 26, 2007 4:08 am

San chin is a vehicle, after you get to your destination; there is not need to lug it around on your back. San chin has many gears, no need to get stuck in first gear, not when you've got a ten-speed.

THe analogy of a vehicle is interesting, because the vehicle I climbed into when I practiced Goju-ryu, both in Japan and Okinawa, was a complete wreck! No engine, no wheels, no gears, no seats, even the rear view mirror had been stripped! And thatís why, through my fight experience, knowledge of boxing, Muay Thai, wrestling, kinesiology and research into the Fujian/Southeast Asian systems, I tried to rebuild it into a functional machine.

So as a vehicle, Sanchin didnít actually take me anywhere! But after Iíd rebuilt it, although a lot was said about my Sanchin, nobody was interested in taking a ride with me.

Everything I put into that Sanchin had been tested in some way or another, and whatís interesting is how, from the perspective of the Fujian systems, apart from that which was beneficial to the enhancement of the neuromusculoskeletal structure and some of the ways of developing power, many of the applications of the skills simply wouldnít have worked against an assailant, armed or unarmed. Whereas, everything that I put into that Sanchin had been tested in some form or another, with a view to not only combat but also the enhancement of the structure.

Thatís what I meant by, the Sanchin has to be tested. There are a lot of people practicing Sanchin who simply canít fight. And their Sanchin isnít going to help them fight, because theyíre not testing it. The ways in which Sanchin is tested are very limited, and they bring out what people want the form to be, without thought to the reality of combat. Now, there are obviously those who can fight who practice Sanchin and will claim that Sanchin has helped them. But the truth is, if you actually examine a lot of the psychological, physiological, and physical attributes of those who make this claim, the fact is they could make anything work. Guys like this could make even an inferior tool work. It doesnít say anything about the tool or the training method, only about the guy. The only way you can really test whether it works (not even absolutely, but in a general sense) is through some form of conditional test.

For example, letís say that youíve been trying to raise your anaerobic threshold for fighting, and youíve been doing specific and non-specific work so you can complete say ten minutes of high intensity interval work. Letís see if it works. Letís put you in a conditional fight against first one guy, say for thirty seconds, then another guy, another thirty seconds, then another guy, and another, and another, until youíve completed your ten minutes. Chances are, you wonít do it. You probably wonít even get through two minutes without becoming exhausted.

So, you then have to go back and adjust your training and then test it again.

And the same can be said also about skills.

Somebodyís going to claim that, say, in the kata Sanchin you could deflect your opponentís attacks, capture his arm, come in at an oblique angle, and perform some Chi na skill on him. OK. Letís try it. And weíll do it under the same conditions as before. First one guy will come in, and heís got ten seconds to try to knock you out with a skill you claim the kata is going to be able to deal with. You know itís coming, itís not even like in a fight. Now try it. First with one, then another, then another. Theyíre all aggressors, theyíre all different in the way theyíre throwing the shot, and theyíre not going to comply with you. Theyíre out to test you. Letís see what your percentage is on that.

And you can do the same with a knife attack. You could keep it simple with one attack, or you could make it more complicated but still in a conditional form. Letís see if it works. Do it with a marker so nobody gets hurt. Count the slashes afterward. I bet you ten to one youíre going to be counting a lot of slashes on your t-shirt, and your arms, and your wrists, and your fingers, and your legs, and your face. You know how I know that? Iíve already done the test.

So for me, my personal experience of testing and applying Sanchin for real is that itís very much a personal thing. You shouldnít climb in it and assume itís going to take you anywhere. Itís what you do with it that matters. There is no such thing as an absolute Ďthis is Sanchiníóyou have to make it work for you or you might as well not bother. And in my opinion, there are far too many assumptions made about Sanchin. Forget the Sanchin. If you see something, as I did, interesting in the Sanchin, then go ahead and explore it. But equally, Iíve seen something interesting in the way a guy serves a 140mph ball in tennis, and I explored that, too. I didnít take up tennis to do it!

If I had my chance to make this journey again, thatís the way Iíd do it. The testing is the most important part. And donít believe. Donít use something like Sanchin to support your belief of what you want it to be.
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Re: Impressed?

Post  Julian on Wed Sep 26, 2007 4:52 am

Makes it a whole lot clearer! Thanks for your insight and your time, Steve.

Julian
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Re: Impressed?

Post  Guest on Wed Sep 26, 2007 5:10 am

Makes a lot of sense....very good.

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