Reality of Violence?

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Re: Reality of Violence?

Post  Sea Bass on Sun Aug 27, 2006 9:51 pm

I deliver mail in San Bernardino, CA and it is a pit. There are crack homes on every corner. Most belive that my biggest danger would be dogs but the real danger comes from the dog owners. I lost count of how many times I have been threatend by a dog owner because I sprayed there dog that was trying to bite me. Not only that but I have to deal with crack heads going through withdraws that know that I deliver government checks (Pretty tempting). I think that it is self neglect if you don't practice self protection.
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Re: Reality of Violence?

Post  Richard Grannon on Mon Aug 28, 2006 3:06 am

alan
my mum lived in east kilbride for a while so i know what u mean, contrary to popular perception, bits of glasgow city centre are as funky and cosmopolitan as london BUT i once had to use a toilet in a pub near a rangers ground and i came out physically shaking- the levels of aggression that a glaswegian emits when just chatting with their mates is too much for me lar! king

dave
i was made manager of moss side aldi a few years ago, i lasted one day after getting shot at with air rifles and fireworks, i didnt realise the drill was to just ignore the smack rats stealing!

sea bass
only been to california once, went to Long Beach thinking it would be a jolly nice place for an englishman to go sunbathing (vest on, hanky on head, white socks in sandals geek )
and was told by a kindly group of young gentlemen to "GET OUT" before i got "Jacked"... whatever that is... sounded unpleasant lol!
to be fair to the lads in question, they could of just robbed me and the car, but didnt
so there ARE some decent people around even in the "barrios"

the more i think about this, the more i think maybe we arent that paranoid

HOW MANY MORE INCIDENTS WOULD WE HAVE BEEN IN WITHOUT TRAINING?

even if the world was a softer happier place, i would still train though because i like it- it keeps my powder dry bom
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Re: Reality of Violence?

Post  peterM on Mon Aug 28, 2006 4:27 am

I guess that dealing with irate dog owners is an occupational hazard with which you deal in an appropriate manner. Whether that involves deceptive dialogue before you launch a pre emptive strike choosing between closed fist or open hand I do not know. I suspect however that if you are still in your job that that has not happened frequently.

Look I am NOT denying that violent incidents occur and in some areas more frequently than others and that it is every individual’s responsibility to take whatever steps he considers appropriate so that he can deal with those incidents.

I also do not seek congratulations for my apparent good fortune or solicit condescending good wishes for my future well being.

My point was simply that given the level of sophisticated preparation espoused one would have thought that this is something that is being faced on a weekly if not daily basis. I queried whether people here are actually experiencing frequent violent encounters and if they were, under what circumstances and did those encounters follow what I think has become the standard model principally based -for many of us at least- on GT’s work.

As for my being interviewed without realising it, it is a totally unproveable assertion I am afraid. You would have me believe that prior to my being aware of the “interview” I would have been interviewed on a number of occasions without realising it and some years after becoming aware of it, I have also been interviewed on a number of occasions, again without realising it. Furthermore on every single occasion that this has apparently occurred I have been “deselected” as a potential candidate.

The “interview” may well be prevalent but the type of argument in support which asserts that it actually happened even when it appears that it didn’t wants to have it both ways and provuides flimsy data in support.

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Re: Reality of Violence?

Post  Jan on Mon Aug 28, 2006 4:31 am

If you're regularly out on the street your chances of bumping into a degenerate increase exponentionally especially in rough areas. Lifestyle plays a big part but isn't everything, since random violence does and can happen.

Last Saturday I could have stayed at home all day in a safe bubble but I didn't. Over the course of the day I:
watched the Liverpool match then the Everton match in pubs,
6 pubs were visted in total,
visited the bookies 4 times,
visited 3 fast food places,
and got the train and walked between places.

I must have met thousands of strangers and quite a few were drunk but there was only one minor incident when a woman gave me shit for looking at her daughter outside a pizza place.

That included drinking in Anfield, Liverpool city centre and Birkenhead town centre spanning from noon to midnight. All of which are arguably rough areas/pubs.

Although nothing happened if I did it regularly I'd bet I'd see several incidents a year. Liverpool and Everton both winning probably had something to do with people being in good spirits Smile .

------------------------------------------------------------------------------------

My last two potentially bad things were probably semi self inflicted.

An attempted mugging at 11pm walking through a rough housing estate a few weeks ago. Demanded my beer Evil or Very Mad

Another attempted mugging when I got lost in Amsterdam city centre 2 months ago. Demanded money.

-------------------------------------------------------------------------------------

There isn't really a pattern to anything because it relies on random encounters. I've had peroids of no major trouble for years and then been attacked randomly twice in a week 4 years ago.

The first attack required surgery and I was lucky to only recieve a fat lip in the second fighting with one hand 7 against 2.

You may never put yourself even in the same postcode as usual trouble spots but bad things still happen.

Being objective I probably put myself in not so good situations a few times a week but even then I'm only in a handful of incidents a year(touch wood) and they don't usually go physical(touch wood).

Richie, I've found a more interesting place than Netherly recently. A housing estate just past the Grafton on West Derby Rd that a friend just moved to. Lovely place affraid affraid affraid

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Re: Reality of Violence?

Post  Jan on Mon Aug 28, 2006 4:44 am

In answer to a question instead of a ramble.

The man from Amsterdam was friendly at first but was too friendly and wouldn't go away, then he just demanded money.

A few weeks ago there were no pleasantries. The lads just demanded my stuff.

For me I find that the interview, deception then strike is used against you if you piss someone off or if you see them coming. If your switched on they have to use this tactic or a strike would be hindered.

If your switched off you just get whacked and wonder what the funk happened.

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Re: Reality of Violence?

Post  Socrates on Mon Aug 28, 2006 5:26 am

Peter:

Let me answer your question from another angle. Personally, I began to study martial arts because of a few nasty experiences (including talking my way out of being killed once). I guess that is a fairly typical reason for getting into training.

After a year or two, my confidence soared and I no longer ran into any trouble. I guess this is fairly typical. I continue to train because of the "buzz" and the health benefits. Again, I guess this is fairly typical.

Most training in traditional martial arts / combat sports focuses on one thing - winning a fight, normally with one person and without weapons. As you´ve pointed out, though, if you regularly get into fights in your leisure time, there´s something wrong with the way you live you life. For people who love training, this leads to a fork in the road.

On the one hand, a small-ish minority decide to "test" their skills by choosing jobs where conflict is inevitable, such as doorwork. Many of the people who go down that route modify the way they train to reflect their new environment. This is where the whole "reality-based self defence (RBSD)" thing comes from.

On the other hand, the vast majority of us look into ways of complementing our training through cross-training. For people like me, who massively enjoy the old way of training, the so-called "soft skills" are clearly missing from what we already do. The soft skills includes awareness training, target hardening and so on. The RBSD world is full of help and advice on developing those areas, even if you don´t jump in and train in a full-on reality style.

What you will find on this website is a group of people who all enjoy training. Some work in physical security, but the majority don´t. Some train in full-on reality styles, some add on RBSD material to older styles of training. I suspect that most of us use this website to talk about training when we´re at work.

Of course, being obsessed about violence isn´t a healthy attitude. However, I think you´ll probably get the wrong idea about the members of this site if you think that it´s ALL we talk about. I´m sure that the vast majority have lives outside martial arts, it´s just we choose not to talk about it most of the time on this website.

Personally, I´ll happily chat away about many other things. I just choose not to do so on this website. Training and thinking about training is maybe 10% of my life. If you only knew me from this website, you might think it was 99% of my life!

All the best,
RGC
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Re: Reality of Violence?

Post  Richard Grannon on Mon Aug 28, 2006 5:58 am

Jan
Richie, I've found a more interesting place than Netherly recently. A housing estate just past the Grafton on West Derby Rd that a friend just moved to. Lovely place

mate im so glad i moved out of there, i had to be onguard just going to buy milk! that whole area round the Grafton is just a mess

Peter
i hope i didnt offend with any of my posts, sometimes i dont reread them properly- i think you ask a good question mate... also to answer the 2nd part of your question, yes most of the time it happens according to the model discussed here, but there many variations on that model

I think Socrates rose some good points too and yes it is about lifestyle
i go out and about a lot at night in dodgy areas and a lot of time I have my eyes open for incidnets because im studying it cause its my job

because i cant get my door badge back over here im going to go back to spain to do doorwork soon, which is kind of another example of "deliberatley" putting yourself in the line of fire... well not fire... more just drunken haymakers...
but you get my drift right? geek
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Re: Reality of Violence?

Post  Socrates on Mon Aug 28, 2006 6:07 am

because i cant get my door badge back over here im going to go back to spain to do doorwork soon

Hey Richie: Where are you off to in Spain?
RGC
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Re: Reality of Violence?

Post  peterM on Mon Aug 28, 2006 7:05 am

Rich-absolutely nothing offensive about any of your posts. I appreciate your feedback. I was at least in part seeking to question what I think has become the received wisdom of self protection relating to the structure of a violent encounter. As I do not have the appropriate experience I was simply raising a question rather than accepting uncritically the model of interview/interrogation/dialogue/deception/pre emptive strike.

Socrates- I appreciate that at a mechanics convention- did Nick Hughes use that analogy?- you would expect talk about car repairs. I just
was wondering about the extent to which there is actual involvement in violent encounters by those here which justifies such apparently serious sophisticated preparation.

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Re: Reality of Violence?

Post  Richard Grannon on Mon Aug 28, 2006 7:29 am

r u asking if there are nerdy technique gatherers and seminar addicts who havent /couldnt/ wouldnt fight their way out of a wet paper bag but just love to chat about it on here?

you cynic! Wink

to be fair the hardest lads i know could barely pick up their emails let alone use a forum... (had a chat last saturday at a club with some lads i used to work the door with and they didnt even know what a "forum"was- not a reflection of intelligence, the club manager has a degree and he didnt know either!)

are we making much of little on this forum? probably, if u ask some of my mates how they deal with someone kicking off on them
they dont slip into jargonese about line ups, fences and preemptives they say "fookin bang 'em, smash their 'eads in laaaaaar"
they dont need aggression training
(many of them would benefit from anger management and counseling)

but im not naturally a fighter so i need all these props/techniques/ drills/ training and things to help me to do it

still a very valid point

socrates
i will be in southern spain from beginning of october, may move on from there back to tenerife, but if i dont maybe we could meet up sometime
(its a bit of a long way- i know)
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Re: Reality of Violence?

Post  Socrates on Mon Aug 28, 2006 7:30 am

Socrates- I appreciate that at a mechanics convention- did Nick Hughes use that analogy?- you would expect talk about car repairs. I just
was wondering about the extent to which there is actual involvement in violent encounters by those here which justifies such apparently serious sophisticated preparation.

What I was trying to say - in a roundabout kinda way - is that probably most of us got into training because of some scary event in the past. A number of people on here (not me) work in physical security, so it´s still a big part of their day-to-day life. For me (and I suspect others), we just enjoy training...
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Re: Reality of Violence?

Post  peterM on Mon Aug 28, 2006 7:50 am


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Re: Reality of Violence?

Post  peterM on Mon Aug 28, 2006 7:52 am

"r u asking if there are nerdy technique gatherers and seminar addicts who havent /couldnt/ wouldnt fight their way out of a wet paper bag but just love to chat about it on here?"

Rich-you have with perception and clarity distilled the essence of all my lengthy writing to one short paragraph. I remain in your cynical debt.

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Re: Reality of Violence?

Post  Socrates on Mon Aug 28, 2006 7:59 am

i will be in southern spain from beginning of october, may move on from there back to tenerife, but if i dont maybe we could meet up sometime
(its a bit of a long way- i know)

Drop me a line if you make it up to Barcelona, mate!

Also, there are a couple of other lads down south - Bobbyboy and the Spaniard are down there. NeilJ is moving there soon. (Those are their names from the old forum, they might be different on here)
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Re: Reality of Violence?

Post  Jan on Mon Aug 28, 2006 8:02 am

richard grannon wrote:are we making much of little on this forum? probably, if u ask some of my mates how they deal with someone kicking off on them
they dont slip into jargonese about line ups, fences and preemptives they say "fookin bang 'em, smash their 'eads in laaaaaar"
they dont need aggression training
(many of them would benefit from anger management and counseling)

It's soooooo funny because it's true Very Happy

Only they don't know to mention "adrenal-induced Tachypsychia", "perceived threat" and "instinctively stiking out while in fear for my life" in their police interview after the deed Cool

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Re: Reality of Violence?

Post  Richard Grannon on Mon Aug 28, 2006 8:27 am

one of my tasks when working with the lads from the wonder bar was training them to say the right things when making a statement

"richie lad teach us how to say all those mad long words and dat"

and writing the incident reports... because i can write

*joke* scousers CAN write! im only kidding... otherwise how would they fill out all their compo claim forms? lol!
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Re: Reality of Violence?

Post  Richard Grannon on Mon Aug 28, 2006 8:29 am

socrates, i certainly will mate
i havent picked up a copy of "cinturon negro" for years... r they into the RBSD thing in spain?
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Re: Reality of Violence?

Post  Slackbladder on Mon Aug 28, 2006 9:40 am

As for my being interviewed without realising it, it is a totally unproveable assertion I am afraid. You would have me believe that prior to my being aware of the “interview” I would have been interviewed on a number of occasions without realising it and some years after becoming aware of it, I have also been interviewed on a number of occasions, again without realising it. Furthermore on every single occasion that this has apparently occurred I have been “deselected” as a potential candidate.

The “interview” may well be prevalent but the type of argument in support which asserts that it actually happened even when it appears that it didn’t wants to have it both ways and provuides flimsy data in support.
I didn't realise you wanted accepted scientific method to back up an answer. Terribly sorry.

Britain IS a rather violent country compared to all other 'developed' nations. Most towns and cities grew organically from times when pedestrianism was the sole method of transport to the masses. This habit of going places on foot is likely to expose you to one of the many young men who make a full-time wage (working a 60 hour week) from petty crime. Such is life.

I work as a security officer in a hospital, where I come into contact with all manner of people who have the universal experience of having had a really bad day. My being interviewed is a nightly experience, being assaulted is likely. In the office safe is a wide variety of cheap kitchen knives, stanley blades, hammers and scalpels that we have recovered from "patients" and their friends. Many of the folks I am priviledged to meet in a professional capacity are ridden with communicable diseases that place a distinct penalty on both life expectancy and quality of life.

So, yes, I take my personal safety seriously. It would be unbecoming not to.

I do take umbrage at the implicit suggestion that my interest in the science of violence is unhealthy. Not so long ago, the ability to fight was considered part of the education of a gentleman. Confucius' stated the 'complete man' was the warrior scholar.
I'm not going to speak for everyone else. I just love this whole topic. Every little thing. The hard training, the kit, the reams of human performance science, the people I meet, the skills I absorb.

I love it. Every little bit. It is an integral part of who I am and what I do. For you to come on here and say "Guys, this just aint healthy." is tantamount to bad manners. If I were to log onto a train enthusiast forum and start saying "Guys, why don't you take the car? You lot spend too much time stood on windy platforms and not enough time in the local bar.", I'd be guilty of poor conduct, n'est pas?

What is so wrong about having an interest that lies outside of your sphere of normal life, anyway? I know of a dude who is a global authority on fairground rides. He's written authoritative guides, speaks at conventions and so forth. He works full-time in an insurance office. Should the only people who have anything to do with fairground rides be the people who work in fairgrounds? Is that the logic you're applying to me?
Some of the most committed, knowledgeable, skilled instructors I've met have been guys who work in hospital labs; construction; schoolteachers; IT and so forth.

If your sole aim is to inform us that we're deficient in some form for thinking this stuff is really, really interesting, just say so. Be honest.
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Re: Reality of Violence?

Post  Socrates on Mon Aug 28, 2006 12:37 pm

i havent picked up a copy of "cinturon negro" for years... r they into the RBSD thing in spain?

Not yet, mate, not yet! Me and a few of the guys on this forum are talking about setting up some seminars. I´m seriously thinking of hosting one or two in Barcelona next year...
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Re: Reality of Violence?

Post  Jamie Wadman on Mon Aug 28, 2006 12:39 pm

Socrates wrote:
i havent picked up a copy of "cinturon negro" for years... r they into the RBSD thing in spain?

Not yet, mate, not yet! Me and a few of the guys on this forum are talking about setting up some seminars. I´m seriously thinking of hosting one or two in Barcelona next year...
Sounds like something I would want to attend!!!!! pirat
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Re: Reality of Violence?

Post  Socrates on Mon Aug 28, 2006 12:42 pm

If and when it happens, I´ll post the details! Be a little bit patient, as I´ve got a new baby and the time isn´t right yet...
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Re: Reality of Violence?

Post  Richard Grannon on Mon Aug 28, 2006 5:48 pm

this is how i imagine slacky in work dealing with situations:

slacky: "excuse me sir im going to have to ask you to leave the hospital for throwing your exretia at the other patients"

drunk: "fook off, ill kill you..."

slacky: "sir i find your attitude reprehensible and your manners unbecoming, as a gentleman i feel it my duty to introduce you to a concept called the 'chin jab', during the execution of which it is possible that you may die... on the other hand you could simply do as your told and walk out without me being compelled into the unseemly task of smashing your jaw into the ceiling, n'est-ce pas?"

drunk: "eh?"

slacky: "Now off you fuck- there's a good fellow."

drunk: "uh... um ... ok then..."
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Re: Reality of Violence?

Post  Joshu's Dog on Mon Aug 28, 2006 6:01 pm

Richie,
Only a quick reflex head turn prevented me from spraying my sip of water all over my keyboard when I read your description of "Slacky At Work".
Now to clean up the water on the *rest* of my desk...
lol!
JK
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Re: Reality of Violence?

Post  Richard Grannon on Mon Aug 28, 2006 6:03 pm

HAHA!
nice to know im reaching out!
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Re: Reality of Violence?

Post  Slackbladder on Mon Aug 28, 2006 6:09 pm

Rich, that's not far from the truth. Smile Never had to hit anyone, though. Saying "...please" goes a long way.
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