Defense and attack techniques and street effectiveness

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Defense and attack techniques and street effectiveness

Post  NickR on Fri Aug 25, 2006 9:20 am

Firstly. This is not meant to be a is MA X better than Y, people do MA for different reasons, the same MA taught by 2 different teachers could be applied for street effectivenes, match fighting or just be plain for fun.

I dont want people to come away thinking, my MA is totally rubbish I should be doing Y, but rather should come away thinking about how they could improve and make things more effective.

Im not just talking about street effectiveness of techniques, but also from a learning and training point of view in the class.

So onto the questions:

How important are both defensive techniques (blocks, parry, throws, arm locks, ground grappling) and attack techniques - strikes - kicks, punches, elbows, head butts etc to a street effective self-protection martial art ?

Do we need both or will one or the other do ?

Can one live without the other - eg can we realistically learn how to defend we dont know how to attack ?

One martial art I spent 6 months learning how to defend from a haymaker - is that realistic ?

If a guy does a defensive MA eg judo or Ju jitsu and a guy does a striking MA eg Muay Thai or TKD, are either of them going to be prepared for the reality of a fight in the street (eg judo guy has only learnt to defend against another judo guy and a tkd guy has only learnt to defend again a tdk guy) ?

Lets throw the overused phrase "Most fights goto the ground", does that mean concenrate on grapling techniques or a blend or just stick to striking and beaware of groundwork ?

Also, from a political, legally correct viewpoint can striking be considered defensive and the risks of it being carried too far and becoming gbh ?

If you are training in an MA for a self-protection element, how does your MA help you prepare you for the street - eg do you spar, do you pressure test, do you do conditioning ?

Cheers, Nick

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Re: Defense and attack techniques and street effectiveness

Post  edbaker on Fri Aug 25, 2006 10:00 am

This is huge man, and I ned to go home from work, so I will return later BUT, in reference to but one of your questions


"Also, from a political, legally correct viewpoint can striking be considered defensive and the risks of it being carried too far and becoming gbh ?"

That's why open hand strikes like power slaps are so effective - they knock your head into last week but they look like a girle man slap - great for when "the law" turns up.
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Re: Defense and attack techniques and street effectiveness

Post  PullupPastor on Fri Aug 25, 2006 10:14 am

Nicks avatar = Laughing Very Happy
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Re: Defense and attack techniques and street effectiveness

Post  Richard Grannon on Fri Aug 25, 2006 12:25 pm

if i do a private course with a student we spend all the first sessions teaching them how to attack attack attack
i might go on to show them some covers and some break aways if ambushed, but against most attacks you are likey to face if you just disregard the assailaints attacking movements, move forward into their space with good form you will fook them up
MOST not all (before i get cyber raped affraid )

i wouldnt waste what precious time i have with a student looking at stuff that wont occur in a fight,
when doing privates they will spend nearly all the time onattacking movements... basic CQC, striking either me (preferably) or the pads,

i will give them some resistant movement to work with, but i dont tell them how to do it, i just let them work out that if my arm comes up they need to attack around it, through it or shove it out of the way

good question mate

Mad did i say the word "attack" enough?

ps if i had just two hours with a student i would pick three attacking moves and just have them drill that repetedly over and over and over with aggression
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Re: Defense and attack techniques and street effectiveness

Post  Average Dude on Fri Aug 25, 2006 1:07 pm

NickR wrote:
How important are both defensive techniques (blocks, parry, throws, arm locks, ground grappling) and attack techniques - strikes - kicks, punches, elbows, head butts etc to a street effective self-protection martial art ?

Short question: why do you consider throws as defensive techniques?
I see no problem in using throws offensively, especially after softening up the guy.
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Re: Defense and attack techniques and street effectiveness

Post  NickR on Fri Aug 25, 2006 1:51 pm

Average Dude wrote:
NickR wrote:
How important are both defensive techniques (blocks, parry, throws, arm locks, ground grappling) and attack techniques - strikes - kicks, punches, elbows, head butts etc to a street effective self-protection martial art ?

Short question: why do you consider throws as defensive techniques?
I see no problem in using throws offensively, especially after softening up the guy.

Good point, this exactly the sort of comment I was looking for Smile

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Re: Defense and attack techniques and street effectiveness

Post  Average Dude on Fri Aug 25, 2006 3:36 pm

NickR wrote:
Good point, this exactly the sort of comment I was looking for Smile
Then you just witnessed a lucky punch in posting Razz

Ok, I thought a bit about what you wrote and came up with the following:

I personally would not not use your form of "classification".
For me, there are no per se defensive or offensive arts, as well as for me there are no per se defensive or offensive techniques.

Like Richard pointed out, the important thing here are attitude and aggression, not art or technique, though certain stuff works better in this field than others.

Hope that made sense jocolor
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Re: Defense and attack techniques and street effectiveness

Post  Alan Bec on Fri Aug 25, 2006 3:49 pm

I believe your main artillery should be striking, lots of fights are finished with one shot, not always a knockout but often an attitude adjuster, you would however be foolish to limit yourself to only striking, shit happens so learn to shovel it.


This thing about most fights go to the ground, if you let them No Just think how many fights have you seen that would never have got to the floor if only one of the fighters could throw a decent punch.

Also how many fights go to the floor because both parties have clashed and fallen over in the struggle NOT because one party was a grappler.


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Re: Defense and attack techniques and street effectiveness

Post  Average Dude on Fri Aug 25, 2006 3:54 pm

Alan beckett wrote:This thing about most fights go to the ground, if you let them No Just think how many fights have you seen that would never have got to the floor if only one of the fighters could throw a decent punch.

Also how many fights go to the floor because both parties have clashed and fallen over in the struggle NOT because one party was a grappler.

Good and very true points Twisted Evil
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Re: Defense and attack techniques and street effectiveness

Post  Line of Eld on Fri Aug 25, 2006 4:58 pm

I think defensive skills are a must for anyone who is intending to invest any significant amount of time training.

If you are training 'alive' then they are going to develop as a natural byproduct of what you are doing. In delivery systems like judo, boxing, muay thai, BJJ and similar you are fighting for the K.O / takedown / submission against someone who wants it just as much as you do, and progressing entails learning the defensive side of the coin as well.

What are fundamental defensive skills that everyone should know, in my opinion?

In Striking range: How to judge distance and stay out of range where possible. Head movement, bobbing and weaving, slipping. Having a solid cage or guard, knowing how to cover up. Keeping your chin tucked. Footwork to tie it all together and keep you moving.

In clinch range: Protecting your neck from snap-down. Keeping good head position. Knowing how to escape double and single neck-tie and how to weather knees and dirty boxing from here. Knowing how to escape from common stuff like headlocks, guillotines and so on. Understanding underhooks, and how to use the whizzer or equivalent if your opponent gets double underhooks on you. Knowing how to sprawl

On the ground: Knowing the appropriate way to get back to your feet while keeping covered against a standing opponent. Knowing how to protect yourself from ground and pound. Knowing escapes from all common positions like the mount, side control, north-south and reversals from guard and half-guard.

In weapons range: I don't really know.

---

While in the past I have heard it suggested that real fights should be one-sided beatings as opposed to exchanges or give-and-take, I have mixed feelings about this. Yes, on the one hand, ideally it is a matter of trying to make it a one-way street insofar as this is possible. However, I also believe that if I am in range to hit someone or throw them then they are in range to return the favour, at which point all of the measures mentioned above become relevant.
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Re: Defense and attack techniques and street effectiveness

Post  edbaker on Fri Aug 25, 2006 5:13 pm

Great post, Line of Eld.

Bottom line - you need to be prepared for the ground, a wet floor, a chair in the way, multiple opponents, anything can contribute to you losing your balance. You need to get back to standing asap and to do this requires knowledge.

So after learning the ko punch - you need to be effective at 6 inches or less, standing or otherwise as this is where you will find yourself.
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Re: Defense and attack techniques and street effectiveness

Post  Alan Bec on Sat Aug 26, 2006 1:18 am

Line of Eld

However, I also believe that if I am in range to hit someone or throw them then they are in range to return the favour, at which point all of the measures mentioned above become relevant.

Very true mate, but if you can get enough forward drive your opponent will be on the back foot, although he is close enough to punch/throw you it will be a lot harder for him if he is going back and you are going forward.



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Re: Defense and attack techniques and street effectiveness

Post  NickR on Tue Aug 29, 2006 6:38 am

From martialartsplanet http://www.martialartsplanet.com/forums/showthread.php?p=326539#post326539 but the link is now dead, I dont know who the author was:


I have to say as a disclaimer, that I am a beginner at Japanese Ju Jitsu, having only been training in it for a year and a bit. Saying that, I've been training in Thai Arts for um, quite a long while now and have 'been around' Martial Arts for along time, on and off. At present I am not training at an Aiuchi club (Can't get there on the designated days at present) and I am looking around at other Japanese Ju Jitsu clubs, as I wish to continue learning.

The Aiuchi and TJF way of practice is very technically thorough and I feel that Japanese Ju Jitsu in general is an excellent system of practice and the techniques can be mostly integrated and used by an experienced fighter, or at least someone who is used to a bit of 'roughousing' and/ or exposes themselves to more 'interactive' training methodology.

The problems that some Japanese Ju Jitsu systems have (not all), is the way they are taught and trained.

Firstly, there is very little meaningful resistance after a technique has been delivered, Ie You attack I defend and wait there whilst I throw you. It's true that after you've been practising a while you can pull-off alot of Ju Jitsu techniques quickly, so that the delay between delivery and execution is less so, but still, a system where the majority of its training consists of attacks and responses in isolation from meaningful continuation and follow-ups is by and large flawed in it's Training Methods (not the system itself).

And whilst certainly higher grades within these systems are very technically impressive and excellent at Ju Jitsu, the question remains, can they fight???

Without meaningful Resistance, techniques become 'ideals', in that in practice you get used to performing something slickly against pre-arranged attacks without the grunt-push-pull of anything approaching a 'Real Situation' (tm), this can be misleading. To me, you need to do both and more besides.

Secondly there isn't anywhere near enough emphasis placed upon Striking and Kicking, Hitting things with Strikes, avoiding strikes (as in 'sparring'). Striking is way down the list of importance within alot of Japanese Ju Jitsu systems, where often it is just assumed that people know how to punch etc.

Whilst that's an assumption you can make with a certain amount of confidence in regards to most Ju Jitsu strikes with the elbow (after all you know how to bend your arm right?), there is, obviously alot more to striking than making a fist, this is very rarely dealt with and represents a problem in that, what's the point in knowing alot of techniques, if your means of delivery is flawed? Even if you know how to punch?

If you are not used to belting things, then how are you going to react when you have to, for real?

Imagine being a boxer and only throwing punches at a stationary wall-pad and then trying to actually hit somebody without training for it, a real moving target. You find that mostly you can't because, you didn't learn to work against a moving target, you only work against stationary ones, you only work against stationary attacks, you only work in singular isolation, or knowing that the attack is a one two punch etc.

As a side note, there is way too much emphasis upon achieving Wrist Locks etc, often at the expense of just hammering someone (*See end point). This can lead to way too much emphasis upon finishing someone with finesse and making the syllabus fit the assault (You train as you Fight).

Whilst Locks, throws etc are all excellent techniques in themself, they should just be something that occur as a 'window of opportunity' and not something to go fishing for. I feel that with the over-emphasis upon Locking and Throwing in alot of Ju Jitsu syllabuses, some people practising are encouraging themselves to go looking for said techniques and not see the easier option that a strike or kick may well represent.

And as strikes etc in Ju Jitsu are often called 'weakeners' (the term negates them being taken seriously) alot of the time people forget about them all together and become fixated upon 'wrist spaghetti'. Ju Jitsu needs to get back to being a system of equal emphasis.

Thirdly, Ju Jitsu is a taught as a 'by-rote' system. In that generally for every attack, there is X amount of defensive techniques. This is excellent in terms of having a large syllabus to draw upon as a bonafide Martial Art, but represents a weakness in terms of all the techniques you end up carrying around in order to defend yourself.

To clarify, this is often the difference between Self-Defence and Martial Arts. For self-defence you need less techniques and more attitude, drive, speed, power etc. You don't need thirty defences against a wrist grab, when one or two will do.

For alot of Martial Arts you need to have alot of techniques because these build into all the possible variables of technical configurations of the system that you are learning and that is part of the fun, enjoyment and social practice of a Martial System. And that is the really great cool thing about doing Martial Arts, in that 'wow I know all these techniques'.

*In closing, I say, that the first major strength of Japanese Ju Jitsu, is that it has many excellent pragmatic answers to Habitual Acts of Violence (HAOV), particularly against grabs, holds, pushes, strangles etc.

Whilst I have outlined what I feel are flaws within the majority of Ju Jitsu training methods, I do feel that with exposure to and adoption of other ways of practising and training, Japanese Ju Jitsu represents a wonderful art based on sound practical principles for defence of ones person.

This to me, is an issue more to do with 'How you Train' and not 'What you Train in'. As someone with a background in Boxing, Muay Thai etc I can automatically bolt-on alot of JJJ type techniques and make them work in real situations (and have done), but that is only because I am used to working techniques against resistance in 'Live' training, i'm not so confident that some of my fellow Ju Jitsukas could say the same.

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Re: Defense and attack techniques and street effectiveness

Post  Line of Eld on Tue Aug 29, 2006 10:12 pm

I only skimmed that article, to be honest, but the end of it caught my eye- in relation to the author being able to 'make work' things as a result of his experience in delivery systems which routinely emphasised working with incremental resistance.

It reminded me of an article Bob Breen wrote for a magazine where he talked about some of the techniques taught in FMA involving upper-body limb controls and joint destructions. He argued that these occurred within arms reach, or what he calls 'trading range', and that in order to work these kind of techniques it was necessary to have a grounding in boxing or something else which accustomed you to giving and taking punishment as a matter of course. I thought this was a refreshingly frank admission.
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Re: Defense and attack techniques and street effectiveness

Post  Nick Hughes on Tue Aug 29, 2006 10:36 pm

1. Ye shall learn to spot a potential attack developing and recognize scurvy knaves and n'ere do wells for what they are.

2. Ye shall develop and practice awareness remembering that ye shall be forgiven for being spanketh but never for being surprised or ambushed.

3. Thou shouldst master the fence and practice it against scurvy knaves

4. thou shall also learn and know pre-emptive striking drills to batter the ramparts of aforementioned n'ere do wells.

5. Ye shall learn the importance of never taking your eyes off your opponent, even for a nano second.

6. Thou should also develop hard punching, kicking, elbowing, kneeing and headbutt skills and practice them diligentally and often.

7. Ye should know what to do if grabbed while standing to effect a release forthwith

8. Thou should study the arts of getting off the ground forsooth for it is not a place to be during mortal combat.

9. Ye should assume that every varlet is armed and has friends lurking nearby and react accordingly

10. Ye should study much with and against aforementioned weapons for warriors shall knoweth their tools and the tools of their enemies.
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Re: Defense and attack techniques and street effectiveness

Post  Katsumoto on Wed Aug 30, 2006 2:11 am

I like the Commandments, Nick!

This is an interesting thread because I've been wondering about the value of spending hours learning to 'trap'...

Should the focus be on attack whatever the context, i.e rather than fanny about trying to grab arms and move them about, just attack the arm that's in front of you - or anything else for that matter - and try to damage it, e.g if arms are raised/extended against you, don't block/trap but smash it with the point of your elbow?

It might just be me, but I enjoy working elbows on my 'Bob' and am getting pretty fluid and powerful from various angles. They just feel like a great tool for a lot of jobs...
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