The Complete System

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Re: The Complete System

Post  Dark Soldier on Sun Sep 03, 2006 3:23 pm

When you are strike a target you aim to get the spinal reflex reaction which the human mind cannot control, this could last for a split second or several seconds or even longer, so you take advantage of this which you learn and gain from regular training. I was previously unsure about this but now I understand that this is universal amongst all of us.
My most recent session with my training partner we were free fighting and we went faster then normal, and something interesting happened when it was my turn to be the fighter. I actually caused a reaction but on a different target then I intended. I was fighting off a grab and went to do a ulna strike to the collar bone to release the grab which my partner would have acted out the reaction but in the process of me lifting up my arm my elbow struck the side of his nose. Now he did a textbook reaction on being struck on the nose but he wasn't acting this out and was stunned for several seconds, plus there was no body weight transfer. this why you need to train slow to start with as injuries can happen. Technically "I missed". But in the process of missing I caused another reaction which made him release his grab instantly and would have set him up for a bundle of other options I could have chosen and he would not have been able to resist. If you don't take advantage of this you will be open up to counters and then you may become the EFFECT-state and won't be able to fight back if they are causing reactions to you.
PeterM, I'm not saying you totally dismiss "the most frightening and aggressive person you have ever faced" as I'm sure adrenalin will be flowing but what I'm trying to point out that for your mind to become offensive (Where the NLP comes into play) and fight rather then flight, you cause the injury, which will put him in the "EFFECT-state." The other option is to run and remove yourself from the situation which is prefered but if you can't get away then you better start causing injuries on the attacker (social v asocial). I just hope my training bloody well works lol! otherwise I will be eating my words.
MMA Apostate, have you ever trained in TFT or SCARS? Your points are valid, although with the testimonals lets hope they didn't make any up which I'm sure they didn't need to, I have seen some random video testimonals praising Tim and his system. A guy I once knew trained in SCARS and said he used it once for real life against a non compliant attacker to great effect and he trained in many combat systems and martial arts before he settled with SCARS.
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Re: The Complete System

Post  peterM on Sun Sep 03, 2006 4:10 pm

DS,

You will see from his intro that MMA Apsotate is a TFT practitioner.

I am not sure what you mean when you say that it was your "turn to be the fighter" but that doesn't sound like free fighting to me.

It is all very well to talk about putting someone in the "effect state" but
quite another to do so when you have no experience in doing so outside of slo mo compliant training. That is why I say that it demands an enormous leap of faith and also why you have to say that you bloody well hope it works.

As for the proof of the system being effective, as the testimonials are self serving adverts for the sytem they cannot be considered proof I am afraid.

MMAA, what you are doing is providing a description of what the sytem is designed to achieve but you totally fail to address the central criticism I have which is that TFT prepares you for a violent encounter by doing absolutely nothing that remotely resembles it. In doing so it violates a fundamental principle of all performance related activities.

At the end of the day you two are comfortable with that methodology. I am not.

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Re: The Complete System

Post  MMA Apostate on Sun Sep 03, 2006 6:12 pm

Peter M,

Just curious, How is one suppose to train digging out someone's eye, crushing there throat, rupturing there testicles, or ear drums ect... with full force withought causing serious damage to your training partner and still have it be effective training?

Also are you saying if we would spar each other (figuratively speaking) at full force and intent you would prove to me that going after these targets to cause medical trauma (or the 68 other targets on the human body I didn't list) would be futile?

I'm not saying TFT is the best RBSD system ever invented or ever will be but you are wrong in declaring it not effective just because all beginners start out in slow motion so they can properly hit there targets and with proper body mechanics, and to do so safely.

You feel safe and wise in your traditional way of training(that's fine) we just happened to have another way to train to get the results we need in a violent situation.

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Re: The Complete System

Post  peterM on Mon Sep 04, 2006 3:43 pm

MMA A,

Your position seems perilously close to saying that what we do is too deadly to practise in any form that comes close to being real.

Some techniques obviously do present a problem from the safety point of view which may be dealt with in certain circumstances by protective equipment and sometimes can only be simulated but TFT’s solution of restricting all training to unrealistic compliant slow motion methods is seriously flawed in my opinion.

Am I saying that your going after targets known to cause trauma in full force sparring would be futile? If your training experience is limited to compliant slow motion training the answer in a word is, yes

You refer to “beginners” but as you well know TFT training comprises 2 and a half days of instruction and slow motion training to achieve competency and thereafter those who are true believers can send in gushing testimonials asserting that they are now so confident in their new found knowledge and ability to inflict serious harm that they can safely walk the streets of Rio or wherever.

In any other field this would be dismissed as lunacy but somewhere along the line we seem to suspend our critical faculties when dealing with matters touching on the martial arts wanting of course to believe that we can magically overcome our weaknesses and insecurities.

Of course any blow by a hard object to a soft or vulnerable target will cause damage if landed. However to suggest that with no experience in landing any blows or dealing with the psychological or physical stress of a violent encounter you are sufficiently prepared by slow motion compliant training simply beggars belief.

In all other areas of life from flying an aeroplane to giving a speech to performing a medical operation training and preparation are based- often at great cost- on replicating as closely as possible the exact conditions likely to be encountered in the real world. TFT turns all this on its head.

I doubt that we can take this much further as we are unlikely to convince each to move our views and any more will probably be just a restatement of our positions. For some reason there appears to be little interest from anyone else but if anyone wants to give a fresh perspective they are
welcome to do so.

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Re: The Complete System

Post  Dark Soldier on Mon Sep 04, 2006 3:50 pm

Free fighting is where you take it in turns attacking each other, but you are doing your own techniques as you go along, your not being technique orientated. I feel TFT thinks outside the box. The legal issues would be a problem if you ever to use TFT for real, thats why I would feel to only ever use it as a last resort and try not to get caught up in situations where I may have to but I don't really need to as the consequences may be detrimental.
I've noticed MMMA is banned, I hope I'm not banned as I do TFT. lol! We are not all like MMMA in terms of his atitude, although he would have made for some interesting debates if he didn't come across rude to others.
My training partner has said a lot of the guys in the states he trains with used to have doubts on the system and are now master instructors and have also used it with great success. It's a bit like marmite, you love it or hate it. Actually I hate Marmite, I prefer peanut butter. jocolor
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Re: The Complete System

Post  Slackbladder on Mon Sep 04, 2006 3:59 pm

Dark Soldier, be assured that MMAA's banning was nothing to do with his chosen system. Conversation so far has been quite civil, hence no involvement from the admin. Smile
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Re: The Complete System

Post  Jamie Wadman on Mon Sep 04, 2006 4:01 pm

The complete system is what keeps YOU happy and safe!!!!!
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Re: The Complete System

Post  Katsumoto on Mon Sep 04, 2006 4:10 pm

I think MMAApostate's banning was a bit harsh.

I suppose I better get me coat....
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Re: The Complete System

Post  Gingerdave on Tue Sep 05, 2006 5:43 am

I think that there is benefit in "step sparring" and in slow motion training, as it allows both parties to build a level of comfort about what they are doing. However I also think that this is not enough on its own because you are dealing with the frenzied attack in the pub on a friday night, your not dealing with the professional mugger who has planned and implimented hundreds of incidents, imho (and only that) it seems that TFT is stopping that one step short.

Hoever I am still of the belief that no systems covers everything to 100% - if there was wouldnt we all be doing it?
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Re: The Complete System

Post  Dark Soldier on Tue Sep 05, 2006 8:01 am

Katsumoto, Why, have you pulled?
Gingerdave, when training we fight from different postions and attack each other using different body weapons and or weapons against various types of kicks, punches, chokes and holds. We do sometimes speed it up as if attacked by surprise or ambushed. One good point you stated PeterM is to pad up and go at bit more full force. My partner says that the TFT guys are looking at this and the training is always evolving. I'm always open to new ideas and training methods thats why I'm on this forum, for example the powerslap I implemented it in my TFT training. I like to adapt or try different techniques learnt from elsewhere. If it works we use it, if we dont like whats being shown or taught you don't have to use it. The thing with TFT is that when learning a technique or move or leverage we dont spend more then 5-10mins on it. They try and make you become fighter orientated, not technique orientated. Also its hard to spot if someone is using TFT in a real fight as every practioner fights differently and there is no get ready stance, like say a muay thai fighter who wants he puts his fist up and the knee slightly up and feet tappping the floor you know a bit about what fighting style this guy has done. You fight from whatever position you are in, whether your sitting, standing, carrying the shopping, on the blower. Might be hard if your having a dump or piss up against the wall though Laughing
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Re: The Complete System

Post  Katsumoto on Tue Sep 05, 2006 8:47 am

Dark Soldier wrote:Katsumoto, Why, have you pulled?"

Politeness, eh?
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Re: The Complete System

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