The Complete System

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The Complete System

Post  Chris on Wed Aug 23, 2006 8:42 am

All,

What factors do you expect to see in a complete system?

Hard and soft skills.

cheers
Chris
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Re: The Complete System

Post  Socrates on Wed Aug 23, 2006 9:23 am

Chris:

It´s a good question, but I´m not sure that looking for completeness is particularly healthy or worthwhile in any field. To give you an example, I quite like a guitarrist called Paco de Lucia. I´ve got a few of his CDs and they usually make me happy when I put them on. However, if I became a completist, and tried to track down every single thing he´d ever recorded in his whole life, it would quickly become an obsession and his music would no doubt stop making me happy.

If we turn back to self-defence (and I assume in your question you mean a complete self-defence system), in another thread John Skillen talked about getting attacked while he was getting undressed in the nick. What are you going do, practice different scenarios while you´re getting undressed? How about in the bath? Or when you´re asleep? Or making love? Or in the pub?

You might have complete self-defence skills, but you´d be so obsessed about defending yourself you might not have any mates or lovers or life! There´s nothing wrong with scenario training as such, but you can´t possibly train every single conceivable scenario or you´d quickly go mad.

There are two approaches I personally like. One is the one that is found in wing chun and capoeira and maybe other arts too: learn to improvise with a smile on your face. Hopefully you´ll be able to improvise when the chips are down too.

The other approach that makes sense to me is the combative one. Develop a killer mindset, then learn to switch it on and off and scale it down as appropriate.

What both approaches have in common is that neither tries to second-guess every single possible scenario. They both give you a skill (improvisational skill or killer mindset) that the practitioner can use as he or she sees fit.

All the best,
RGC
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Re: The Complete System

Post  Dave Turton on Wed Aug 23, 2006 9:24 am

Damn I just typed out a long post and deleted the bloody thing somehow..

I'll try again

first the word COMPLETE has to be in context..

boxing by its own 'rules' is a complete combat sport

but wrestling is often not prefixed or suffixed .. so when it is say in Cumbrian Wrestling.. as that is a complete style it doesnt need additions

but if it is described as a COMPLETE wrestling system then it should have all regional and ethnic style sincluded..

in most cases the word complete isnt that big a problem
Take MMA .. this is a heavy contact combat sport.. so methods agains gang and weapon attacks arent necessary in its syllabus.. in itself its complete for what it is

It (and most other styles with boundries) are only IN-complete when they come outside their own parameters

The problems occur MOST when the terms Self-Protection and self-defence are in the equation..

often we see ads for 'TOTAL' self defence or the 'COMPLETE' SD/SP system etc... that then becomes a grey area..

for a system to be a COMPLETE SD/SP system it must incorporate ALL trypes of attack in all scenarios for all humans..

so KIds, elderly, disabled, male female (not sures).. etc tec ALL have the right to defend themselves.. most system fall into three catagories as far as SD goes.

1. the Trad types who SAY they do SD/SP but actually dont
2. the Mixed types who try but like say MMA have bits missing, but are better than type 1.
3. The styles/system who TRY hard to cover all aspects , but cant .. but at leats are trying

after all if you advertise say "Complete Female Self-Defence" and DONT study Rape, Sexual Harrassment, Date Rape, Drug rape, Mughings etc as well as 'common assaults' the it is nowhere complete..

but how many MALE orientated styles will study MALE Rape etc

how many styles take their students outside to see how cars, phone boaxes, weather crowds etc influence it.

now NO system can have it all for SD and SP ..its impossible.. butthose styles and systems that really do what I termed

"Dojo self-defence" often fall way short of expectations which is why many people who WANT to learn to defend themselves following a PERSONAL situation at home or at work for example, fail to see why the club stuff only seems valid for one fit young person sparring or grappling another fit young person..

we can only TRY and be as complete as possible with the parameters of what we are aiming for..

so the study of womens anti rape in night clubs isnt the same study as 8 year old lads being bullied in the playground..

yet if we advertise COMPLETE self-defence both those aspects and 1000's more should be there in the teachings

BIG subject Chris mate

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Re: The Complete System

Post  Joshu's Dog on Wed Aug 23, 2006 9:38 am

Interesting, my Eskrima instructor last night said "Every system has gaps, it's important to understand the gaps in your own system and then work on filling them".

Interesting synchronicity.

JK
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Re: The Complete System

Post  edbaker on Wed Aug 23, 2006 9:46 am

Excellent post Dave. By the way - my girl asks me to "show her some moves" initially as I got her into kickboxing at her gym and she loves it so I showed her how to punch to impress her class mates (women are so competitive) then we got on to self protection and I have talked with her about mindset, awareness, fence, powerful strikes for physically weaker folk etc but i was flying blind a bit- just wondered if you could direct me to anywhere with specific tips for women on sd/sp and rape-defense etc? cheers

Socrates not sure if I agree with the musical analogy - sometimes when you become engrossed in an artist and you dicover all their work it just re-affirms that passion and builds an even stronger bond. I think this can be the same with sp/sd.
I agree that becoming so fixated on the endless permutations of an attack scenario is counter-productive but your point about killer instinct and the ability to apply it at will is nearer the mark in terms of "completeness" in my view.
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Re: The Complete System

Post  Socrates on Wed Aug 23, 2006 9:56 am

I like JK´s point of doing complementary work. If you´ve done years in a very hard SD-orientated style, though, that might be yoga!
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Re: The Complete System

Post  Line of Eld on Wed Aug 23, 2006 10:13 am

Putting aside what someone in a career putting them in harm's way would require, I can think of a sort of shortlist for a 'complete' course of study for the average person. I say that slightly ironically, as this is not the kind of thing an 'average' person is ever likely to get around to.

- Get into excellent physical condition and stay there by adopting a sustainable yet demanding programme of exercise, and supplement with a healthy diet and regular medical check-ups.

- Become proficient in basic wilderness / SERE / survival skills, instilling a bedrock mental sense of self-reliance and self-confidence, if nothing else. This would include first aid skills and ditch medicine.

- Address 'soft skills', familliarising yourself with all the material which has come to the fore over the past two decades from people like Geoff Thompson et all.

- Address 'hard skills' according to your context. For those of us in the UK, I would argue that this should entail becoming proficient in delivery systems addressing clinch, standup and ground, supplemented with and understanding of how these delivery systems relate to the realities of fighting as an assymetrical activity, and one which often rewards pre-emptive action. I'd also be inclined to argue that at some point this training should be expanded to address the fundamentals of impact and edged weapons, preferably in a training environment which mimics the original delivery systems chosen (e.g If you do MMA, look to the Dog Brothers for weapons work).

-Consider augmenting your preparation by addressing possibles like: Advanced driving courses, sailing, climbing, swimming and lifesaving etc.

- Make a hell of a good living to finance the above! And even trickier, find a familly which will tolerate your 'eccentricities'.

I know this isn't exactly the sense the question was offered in, but the above has kind of been rattling around my head over the past year or so. The only shortcut to this kind of preparation that I can think of is probably a stint in the armed forces.

I'll be the first to admit that I do not address all of these areas: My knowledge of wilderness survival, for example, is very very limited although in principle I think it sounds like a brilliant idea. Likewise, my first aid training is two years old and I have not done a refresher course. I guess we naturally spend a disproportionate amount of time looking at the areas we primarily enjoy and which are sustainable parts of our lifestyle.
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Re: The Complete System

Post  Gingerdave on Wed Aug 23, 2006 10:31 am

I think JK nailed it:

There is no complete system.

However the thought occurs that the "completeness" of a given system will, as always, depend on the quality of the instructor.

Take Nick Hughes - massively experienced and knowledgeable in SD and TMA and his view of Karate's completeness would be greater then so one who trained in a McDojo for 6 months said it was crap, doesn’t work and left.

I very rarely see on the forum this system is complete, it is however nearly all I have X as a base system and Y and Z as support systems. we all create our own complete systems, they have filled in the gaps (if we are lucky) of the others.
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Re: The Complete System

Post  Get Back on Wed Aug 23, 2006 11:09 am

I think that the Combatives I have seen, is as complete as anything can be.

There is 1 goal, coming first.

It then breaks down into strategies for dealing with confrontation.

At the lower level it then moves into specific tactics (chin jab, axe hand etc) for resolution.

It is simple, structured, and easy to learn.

Mike
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Re: The Complete System

Post  mattyboy on Wed Aug 23, 2006 11:29 am

Spot on Ginger Dave...I guess we are largely doing what Bruce Lee said we would be doing....long before they tried to make a system out of JKD...
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Re: The Complete System

Post  Richard Grannon on Thu Aug 24, 2006 12:50 pm

There is 1 goal, coming first.

i agree

in every aspect of my life...
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Re: The Complete System

Post  Gerry Nolan on Fri Aug 25, 2006 1:55 am

for covering everthing from unarmed to armed to rifles and grenades...

probably the most "complete" system I have trained in and seen is Israeli Krav Maga. Israeli KM Assoc.. www.kravmagaisraeli.com

This guys do everything from strikes, grappling judo/wrestling/bjj stuff. weapons defence knives stick etc... guns. militay as in taking an M16 off someone... and even hostage situations.

I did their instructor course in Israel last year. They even make you learn high kicks , and spinning kicks, which I had not done for about 2 years. I asked my bother with the kicks... the answer always was "you must be able to do everything!!!!...you never know when you need it"

the senior guys had impressive skills. but having said that, they train, 5 hours 6 nights a week. lets say their obsessed!

of course KM has its only factions, and these guys while a very small organistaion when compared to IKMF or american Km, would be the most complete. in fact this is the original KM group from which these guys come.

of course... some of it is very KM one step sparring techniques based, which has its down side. and they have a bit of a "dojo" mentality like bowing to the mat, making you wear back gi pants, and a belt system, which pee'd me off a little.

I do not consider myself to me a KM man, I got what I needed from KM, and I perfer the less formal more real world combatives stuff back up with good muay thai.

if I was going to do KM again, and I had an istructor from these guys to teach me, I would certainly do some training under them.
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Re: The Complete System

Post  mattyboy on Fri Aug 25, 2006 2:32 am

Slightly off tangent...But ok most of us accept that there isnt one complete system..although some come close.But do you think that there is or have been Complete Martial Artists ie people that have arrived at that stage that just means that they arent going to get any better?

Matty
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Re: The Complete System

Post  Dark Soldier on Tue Aug 29, 2006 4:13 am

The Special Combat Aggressive Reactionary System and Target Focused Training is as complete system as you can get, although some areas are only touched upon such as adrenalin, pre empting and threat awareness. Unarmed combat, edged and impact weapons, pistol and rifle dissarms, multiple attackers and fighting on the ground (compression fighting) is taught. The training is a Gestalt method where they are training your subconcious so that when the $h1t hits the fans and the adrenalin flowing you will still be fighting. all moves are offensive so it kind of covers the pre-empting and you always train for more then one attacker so you are alert on any threats and you fight from whatever postion you are in. People say it's just rehashed San Soo but there is more to it then that. a lot of it is common sense.
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Re: The Complete System

Post  peterM on Tue Aug 29, 2006 12:05 pm

Some of you may be more familiar with the SCARS acronym rather than
the full name of the first system mmentioned devised by Jerry Peterson. Target Focus Training is a derivative/development by Tim Larkin a former associate of Peterson's.

I was under the impression that SCARS was not highly considered in the US. Perhaps you can tell us more about it in the circumstances?

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Re: The Complete System

Post  Dark Soldier on Tue Aug 29, 2006 2:51 pm

From what I know SCARS got bad press in the states due to the way Jerry Peterson marketed SCARS and many people found him arrogant and up his own A$$. Also many questioned certain elements of the system and from there I guess it snowballed within the martial arts community and thats where it earned its bad press from other peoples comments. My training partner who has attended 2 SCARS training camps said the training was excellent but didn't like the way Jerry taught. He then went to TFT with Tim Larkin who he found was a better instructor and they have evolved some of the concepts of SCARS. Also at the SCARS institute there is currently a thing called the Knights of SCARS which is like some kind of cult which he disliked aswell. But apart from that I find the training excellent and I know someone who claimed to have used it and it served them very well.
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Re: The Complete System

Post  peterM on Tue Aug 29, 2006 3:50 pm

Are you training in the US or over here?

I don't think that anyone is teaching SCARS as such over here but I may be wrong. TFT is ridiculously expensive for a two day seminar presenting an unproven methodology.

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Re: The Complete System

Post  NickR on Tue Aug 29, 2006 4:37 pm

As well as whats been mentioned:

One that evolves and changes with time and further knowledge and understands that different people are better at certain things rather than a one technique fits all attitude.

After a little more pondering:
Most martial arts were combat systems or based on a combat system, and as our friend from Santa Cruz said to me today, a Marial Art should define the techniques which are practical and those which are there for fun/tradition etc, totally eradicating those techniques which are ineffective and only there for traditions sake, might actually loose the identity of a specific martial art.
The originating combat systems had no space for the art side of things, but a martial art might not be intented to be a pure combat system, but also instill ancillary attributes like respect and discpline which are not part of the combat sylabus.

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Re: The Complete System

Post  Dark Soldier on Wed Aug 30, 2006 1:50 am

Peter M, I'm training over here. My training partner has been to several SCARS camps and trains with the TFT guys on a regular basis in the states. He teachs me and we train together when we can. Your right about the expensive cost of the 2day seminar. My partner said about the SCARS marketing that it was a bit OTT and doesn't make you unbeatable as it claims but he said that after leaving a SCARS camp or TFT seminar, you leave with the knowledge on how to seriously injure another human being. Also the training frees your mind up, your striking targets and become very fluid. Your devising techniques as you go along without thinking about them (we call techniques "co-ordination sets".) And you fight the same way whether the person is armed or unarmed, although you amend a few principles when doing firearm disarms.
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Re: The Complete System

Post  peterM on Wed Aug 30, 2006 5:47 am

dark soldier,

I respect your training decision.

I personally was not convinced by the TFT methodology which works off slow motion co operative training and as far as I am aware does not involve any contact sparring.

Tim Larkins justification at least as far as contact is concerned is that dealing with the pain felt by a gloved fist is not the same as the pain felt in a street encounter and in any event we all know what pain is.

There is an element of truth in what he says but I think that you are losing a valuable training opportunity by throwing the baby out with the bathwater.

He does have usefel things to say about social v asocial violence and victim mindset.

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Re: The Complete System

Post  Dark Soldier on Wed Aug 30, 2006 7:31 am

I had many questions before training and decided to go for it and start training. Some of the TFT methodology is strange such as they don't use heavy bags for impact training as the timings different when hitting a moving human, but I find it useful just to develop more power. The mastery students also colour code anatomy books for easier recognition of the different areas of the body to inflict trauma. Also operant fighting is emphasised, which is like shadow fighting when you don't have a training partner.
SCARS used to have a flak jacket drill for impact training where the attacker wears a flak jacket and the fighter punches to the body of the attacker to get him moving to the other side of the room and then swap over. This was to develop power and the correct body dynamics. The principles re: combat seem sound to me. The slow motion co-operative training is how newbies train to ensure safety in training. The more experienced you become the faster you can train but you can still remain slow as this is where you develop correct body positioning and targeting. If you go too fast you cover up sloppy mistakes. The reactions that you perform whilst training is to code these into your brain, both when attacking and being the reaction partner. Now I know that the reactions are not going to be exactly the same for each person but the base reaction will be the same and many factors will cause slight variations to the actual reactions.
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Re: The Complete System

Post  peterM on Wed Aug 30, 2006 11:30 am

My point is that all this training is done on a compliant opponent. TFT practitioners have no experience of applying it on someone who is:

a. avoiding their attacks
b. seriously intent on causing them harm
c. oblivious to the damage they think they will cause

They also have no idea how they will respond when they are put under pressure.

Despite this they feel free to give glowing recommendations about the course and their fighting capacity after only two days training.

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Re: The Complete System

Post  Dark Soldier on Wed Aug 30, 2006 3:03 pm

I respect and understand your questions about the system, I had similar questions in my head before I started training. I try to answer your questions the best I can:
a) They shouldn't be able to avoid your attacks. You are offensive and overwhelming them by doin one of three things when you strike the attacker: 1) Knock them out, 2) Cause Chaos or 3) Take their balance. You never block, you always striking, fighting belly to belly, crashing through their skeletal structure until they are non-functioning.
b) You injure them no matter the intent of them causing you serious harm. Thats their Cause-Effect state principle. If say a Football hooligan came charging at you looking the most ugly, frightening and aggressive person you ever faced and shows intent of seriously harming you and then all you do is casually walk up and stick your finger in his eye and injure him and get a reaction, you have just become the Cause, he is reacting to you. obviously you wouldn't stop there because you take advantage of that reaction and cascade through him striking whatever targets you feel fit.
c)Please rephrase as I'm not sure what you mean.
With the glowing recommendations its most likely from the information received over the two/three days because you are taught a lot of principles. A bit like getting the Receipe for making a Dinner, you now know how to do it but everytime you make this dinner from now on, it won't be how you would like it until a few more tries(practice&regular training with a partner).
There have been times in training I have been non compliant and I ended up on my a$$ and brusied.
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Re: The Complete System

Post  peterM on Sun Sep 03, 2006 4:46 am

DS,

I think that you have given an excellent summary of TFT methodology.

The trouble about it is that it requires an enormous leap of faith to think that without some serious pressure testing against non compliant opposition you can make it work in a real situation.

It all very well in theory talking about "overwhelming" your opponent but
not so easy when you have never even come close to doing it in simulated and safe circumstances.

The idea that you can casually dismisss "the most frightening and aggressive person you have ever faced" by "poking him in the eye" and putting him in the "cause state" is I am sorry to say a complete flight of fantasy.

For every activity that takes place in the real world the aim of preparation is to simulate as closely as possible the actual situation that will be encountered and even then there is no substitute for real life experience. TFT appears to be an exception to this rule of life.

Thanks for the time and effort and time you have taken which is appreciated and I need hardly add that while the above is my view if you are happy with your training- which you seem to be- then by all means do what you think is right for you.

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Re: The Complete System

Post  MMA Apostate on Sun Sep 03, 2006 12:22 pm

Actually TFT has been proven affective many times. There are testimonials out there stating how this system saved them from a bad situation.

And the thing about poking the eyes. You are trained that if you don't get the spinal reflex you quickly move on to the next target until one is affective and then you start stacking injuries.

Also, about how TFT practitioners train. Why look at it and quickly judge that it's not affective instead of looking at it and asking how is this affective. I personally view that TFT is JKD's philosophy gone into srictly self defense(My opinion) It's based off the science of human anotomy and physiology. It's simple, direct, and non classical. It's not designed so you can whoop someone who you think deserves it, or needs to be taught a lesson. It's about having the tools and knowledge necessary to survive a situation that was unavoidable and would have either left you in the hospital or dead. TFT practitioners are training for the extreme situation in which one would have to survive. So the training method would obviously be different from those who train to submit or bruise there aponnent.

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