ARTICLE - IMPROVISED WEAPONS

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Re: ARTICLE - IMPROVISED WEAPONS

Post  Flash on Tue Jul 07, 2009 12:06 pm

I've never had the opportunity to use it for real, but I've been carrying it around with me, at certain times, just in case.

I agree that lead hook or a rear straight would be harder (if thrown correctly). But I would rather attempt to disarm a needle toting junkie with the help of EVO, or Bike, or failing that my right boot Smile I'm not claiming that this weapon is superior to the fist, just that it may have it's place.

In terms of any other improvised weapons I'm not a huge fan.

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Re: ARTICLE - IMPROVISED WEAPONS

Post  Ade on Tue Jul 07, 2009 12:17 pm

Right,so you carry it round with you just in case,but you don't know if it's going to work because you've never used it for real.

Hmmm...
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Re: ARTICLE - IMPROVISED WEAPONS

Post  Flash on Tue Jul 07, 2009 12:47 pm

Ade wrote:Right,so you carry it round with you just in case,but you don't know if it's going to work because you've never used it for real.

Hmmm...

How else is it possible to find out whether something works? Hopefully the opportunity never arises... but if something unpleasant does occur then I might as well try and learn something from the experience. And yes, there is a risk that it might backfire.

Ade - cards on the table: I feel that delving into semantics was a cheap shot.

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Re: ARTICLE - IMPROVISED WEAPONS

Post  Ade on Tue Jul 07, 2009 1:26 pm

No cheap shot intended (well,maybe a little Razz )

It's simply this,if you are going to carry something "just in case" surely it would be a sensible move to make it something that you KNOW will do the job.Therefore reducing that "risk that it might backfire"...a backfire that could land you in an ambulance or much,much worse.
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Re: ARTICLE - IMPROVISED WEAPONS

Post  Flash on Wed Jul 08, 2009 5:09 am

Ade wrote:No cheap shot intended (well,maybe a little Razz )

It's simply this,if you are going to carry something "just in case" surely it would be a sensible move to make it something that you KNOW will do the job.Therefore reducing that "risk that it might backfire"...a backfire that could land you in an ambulance or much,much worse.

The scoop is that once a week I pass through a dodgy area on foot. It's only a couple of blocks. There's not an easy solution for me to avoid doing this. The area is dodgy because the local authority has decided to house a bunch of junkies there. Nine times out of ten the journey goes without incident. The other time I'll encounter one or more junkies, sometimes a little group of them. Usually I see them first and am able to avoid a confrontation. Sometimes they just ignore me. A couple of times they've accosted me for spare change. They say "Excuse me pal..." and I shoot back with "You're excused." By the time they get their heads round that I'm pretty much clear of them.

Once a few months back a junkie considered starting on me, but backed down when he realised that he'd most likely get a beating.

A couple of years back I had a needle pulled on me. The junkie looked about 50, was 5ft tall and probably weighed about 100lbs. It never escalated beyond threats, and I was confident of dispatching him easily with my right boot. Purely by chance the police walked past and lifted him during the stand off! It went to court and he pled guilty.

Faced with a larger and fitter junkie, even using a boot against a needle carries an element of risk. It will probably work, but there's always the danger of getting scratched with the needle. I think that a magazine has a lot going for it in these circumstances:

1) It's legal. If you are carrying a club then you'd need to conceal it. However you can walk past the police with a rolled up magazine in your hand and not get a second glance. You can't get busted for it.

2) You've already got it in your hand. It's not like a concealed weapon that you need to retrieve, it's already deployed.

3) It makes you look like a harder target. The scum might pause to think "Let's wait for another victim, one without a weapon."

4) It's accurate and effective at a distance, certainly capable of disarming and even blinding a junkie. It's also capable of delivering a KO to the jaw - tried this once in training with a head guard and the concussive force is more than ample. My training partner wanted to be certain that it would work. Now we know hah hah.

5) The magazine isn't going to catch HIV. Personally I would prefer not to use my fists on a junkie.

6) It's automatically decommissions should you choose to discard it during combat, and cannot easily be scooped up and used against you.

If you can think of a better option under those circumstances then I'm all ears.

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Re: ARTICLE - IMPROVISED WEAPONS

Post  David Stanswood on Wed Jul 08, 2009 5:34 am

Flash,
Dont walk that way once a week find another route mate Very Happy

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Re: ARTICLE - IMPROVISED WEAPONS

Post  Socrates on Wed Jul 08, 2009 5:48 am

Canīt you get the bus? Or buy a bike?
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Re: ARTICLE - IMPROVISED WEAPONS

Post  Flash on Wed Jul 08, 2009 6:59 am

Like I said there's reasons why I can't change it, but too complex and boring to get into. Oh - and I'm not a paperboy LOL Smile But I pity whoever is.

It's really not that bad.

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Re: ARTICLE - IMPROVISED WEAPONS

Post  Guest on Fri Jul 10, 2009 9:59 am

Flash wrote:[ I think that a magazine has a lot going for it in these circumstances:

1) It's legal. If you are carrying a club then you'd need to conceal it. However you can walk past the police with a rolled up magazine in your hand and not get a second glance. You can't get busted for it.

2) You've already got it in your hand. It's not like a concealed weapon that you need to retrieve, it's already deployed.

3) It makes you look like a harder target. The scum might pause to think "Let's wait for another victim, one without a weapon."

4) It's accurate and effective at a distance, certainly capable of disarming and even blinding a junkie. It's also capable of delivering a KO to the jaw - tried this once in training with a head guard and the concussive force is more than ample. My training partner wanted to be certain that it would work. Now we know hah hah.

5) The magazine isn't going to catch HIV. Personally I would prefer not to use my fists on a junkie.

6) It's automatically decommissions should you choose to discard it during combat, and cannot easily be scooped up and used against you.

If you can think of a better option under those circumstances then I'm all ears.

1 - Barring certain occupations (like the police) It is not legal in the UK to carry an article that you intend to use for self defence.

2 - You may well already have it in your hand..... but that does not mean it is something worth having in your hand.

3 - I have never heard of a potentil attacker backing off because someone had a magazine in their hand. Maybe carrying that week's edition of "Bugger a Mugger" might do the trick though?

4 - I think we have already ascertained that you do not actually know of this "weapon's" effectivenes.

5 - Again, you are assuming that it is an effective tool.

6 - It may well be "automatically decommissioned...." but would most probably fall to the floor just prior to your head hitting the pavement..... as a magazine would not protect you.


Let's get real. I'm all for discussion of effective self defence. That's why I help run this site. But it may be wise to present your theories as theories.... and not talk with authority, only to then have to admit you have never actually done what you are recommending to others.

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Re: ARTICLE - IMPROVISED WEAPONS

Post  JKA on Fri Jul 10, 2009 9:31 pm

Don't know about belting someone with a magazine, last time I did that the target would have been my sister!

I have smacked someone with a pick handle, which only escalated the situation until I resolved it by discharging a firearm. I was very surprised at the lack of effect, given I was using full force and aiming for a collarbone.

Given that experience, I would be reluctant to use a club of any kind and expect to win.

Having said that, a couple of years ago a relative of mine was murdered by one blow from a kids' softball bat, swung from being held down by the thigh. He was effectivly dead as he fell to the ground! I think even the killer was surprised, that's not what happens in the computer games.

http://www.nzherald.co.nz/nz/news/article.cfm?c_id=1&objectid=10396225

Cheers

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Re: ARTICLE - IMPROVISED WEAPONS

Post  David Stanswood on Sun Jul 12, 2009 11:46 am

Flash,
I just watched a programme based on the dog brothers (americans who hit each other with sticks based loosely on escrima). Its worth watching just to see how much use having a stick or magazine really is. The range where it was usable is lost fairly quickly when one person crashes in. And these guys train alot with sticks and it still for the majority ends in punching or grappling. I m not arguing against your ideas i have trained a bit with sticks (latosa escrima) but i have found that the only advantage you have with certain weapons is purely psychological you can hide behind it and feel safer having it. Then a heavy dose of reality makes you rethink about having these dragon slayers and how ineffective they actualy are. Now i have no doubt that certain people can use these with good effectiveness but they will as always fall into the minority. I will shut up now

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Re: ARTICLE - IMPROVISED WEAPONS

Post  Nick Hughes on Tue Jul 14, 2009 11:49 am

David,

With regards to the dog brothers mate...couple of points.

1. The dog brothers comps usually involve the wearing of a fencing mask which enables people to charge in and take a shot to get into grappling punching range.

2. they fight with rattan sticks which are used for training purposes.

Change the rattan (which is a vine) to iron bars or cocobolo hardwood, take the masks off and I suspect the results would be somewhat different.
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Re: ARTICLE - IMPROVISED WEAPONS

Post  David Stanswood on Tue Jul 14, 2009 12:19 pm

Nick,
Couldn't agree more on that one mate. I use to train with hickery sticks and getting hit with one of them was as always uncomftable to say the least. My point was really how quickly the distance is lost when using certain weapons and your attacker is determined to get to you. If your not 100% accurate with your stick etc and it does not have enough power to put your opponent away then being able to generate enough at close quarters is even harder considering you couldn't when the opponent was 5 feet away. Yes you can choke etc with sticks but this was based on the rolled up mag thingy.
Just my opinion anywho Very Happy
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Re: ARTICLE - IMPROVISED WEAPONS

Post  Nick Hughes on Thu Dec 17, 2009 5:58 am

Generally there are 3 certain ways of stopping a human:

1. Kill them - actually very difficult, regardless of what movies you've seen, plus outside of the moral reach for most.

2. Incapacitate via Trauma - causing so much injury that the person is physically incapable of doing anything offensive, including pulling a trigger. Very difficult and distasteful for most - would be a very messy aerobic workout with a key or pen implement.

3. Incapacitate via Knock Out - actually the easiest and most accessible of all the above. Can't be done effectively by any means other than direct impact to the head/neck area, or some form of strangle/choke. Puncture/slash wounds won't have this effect unless the victim loses so much blood as to become unconscious.

Mick, ya daft apeth...I think you forgot a couple mate.

4. Incapacitate via shock i.e. tasers

5. Incapacitate by restraining someone

6. Incapacitate via chemical agent such as mace, OC

7. Incapacitate by talking to them in a Yorkshire accent and saying things like "tha thinks that it thee but that not tha no's ya barmpot daft wazzock."

Nick
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Re: ARTICLE - IMPROVISED WEAPONS

Post  RoryQ on Thu Dec 17, 2009 11:11 am

The key word Mick used was 'certain'.

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Re: ARTICLE - IMPROVISED WEAPONS

Post  Nick Hughes on Thu Dec 17, 2009 8:23 pm

So tasering, and OC are less certain than attempting a knock out, attempting to incapacitate via slashing them with keys etc (which Mick actually says is
Very difficult and distasteful for most
?

Spare me.

Brian...that is undoubtedly your most piss poor argument of the entire year mate. You're continually throwing out "your argument is terrible because your citing one example" and here you come citing one case.

Think I can't find you case after case where people have been fighting and not getting knocked out, who've been hit by OC and/or tasers and stopped in their tracks? You seriously going to try and tell me tasers don't work as well as attempting to punch someone?

Nick
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Re: ARTICLE - IMPROVISED WEAPONS

Post  Guest on Fri Dec 18, 2009 2:38 am

Nick Hughes wrote:You seriously going to try and tell me tasers don't work as well as attempting to punch someone?

Nick,

Without wanting to become too involved in your argument with Brian, which promises to be highly entertaining, I will 'seriously' attempt to tell you that the most effective taser is absolutely useless if you don't have one - which is the case for the vast majority of people.

Rory was correct to a degree in his above post, but the first word in the quoted section you presented was 'generally' which I hoped might draw attention to means that could work for most people, against most people, in most situations.

If you wanted to list every single method of incapacitation, you'd have to include the following:

- Incapacitate via hypnosis, where you convince someone that they are in fact a table lamp called 'Blat' from Ikea.

- Incapacitate via drugs, the age old tactic of buying someone drinks all night until they are comatose and no danger to anyone but themselves.

- Incapacitate via age, simply waiting until they expire from natural causes.

This list could go on - but I'm the moderator of this forum section and I can guarantee everyone that it won't...take the hint.

Very accurate observation regarding the Yorkshire accent however, though it's a black art long lost to me unfortunately...

Mick

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Re: ARTICLE - IMPROVISED WEAPONS

Post  Nick Hughes on Fri Dec 18, 2009 6:47 am

Mick,

All joking aside I included the others (apart from the Yorkshire accent) because they're all readily available here in the States (in most States of the Union) and are used fairly often by people.

I'd guessed you'd written the piece originally thinking about it from a uniquely UK perspective where the average bod doesn't have access to the gas/taser/gun stuff.

Nick

PS: Brian's never won an argument with me yet...what makes you think he's going to start now. HAW HAW HAW Very Happy
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Re: ARTICLE - IMPROVISED WEAPONS

Post  Guest on Fri Dec 18, 2009 7:26 am

Mick Coup wrote:- Incapacitate via hypnosis, where you convince someone that they are in fact a table lamp called 'Blat' from Ikea.

Twisted Evil

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Re: ARTICLE - IMPROVISED WEAPONS

Post  Guest on Mon Dec 21, 2009 4:04 am

Nick Hughes wrote:I'd guessed you'd written the piece originally thinking about it from a uniquely UK perspective where the average bod doesn't have access to the gas/taser/gun stuff.

Actually, I wrote the article - as I always tend to where possible - from a neutral perspective, assuming nothing.

I would argue that even the average US citizen does not have access to the items you mention - right now I'm betting that there are far more individuals walking around without any gun, spray or taser, and those that are armed should not rely upon such means as their base default. Each item can fail, be dropped or taken from the individual, or circumstances can dictate that the items are not available 100% of the time - in which case they become a lower percentile option, and this cannot be ignored.

My first intention is to train the high-percentile options, and from a worst-case angle at that. All the initial training and teaching that I offer takes this approach and builds from there with specifics particular to an individual's role or remit. I firmly believe that the abstract should come first as it is broader and more flexible in perspective - the more specific you make something, the narrower the scope of it's application and this proves problematic when situations shift outside of this limited focus.

Even teaching fully equipped law enforcement officers subject management starts with this - initially everything is from an unarmed and unequipped perspective, and once basic competence is achieved 'worst-case' then sidearms, OC spray and handcuffs are added as enhancements.

I have run into the 'all-gun' mentality a few times in the US for instance, where during training the occasional cop will refer to his 'ever-present gun as being his preferred solution - and I point out that at that moment in time, in that exact situation, it's safely locked in his vehicle all the way out in the parking lot, along with his baton, OC and taser...

Mick

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