Punching question

View previous topic View next topic Go down

Punching question

Post  Jeff Menapace on Thu Nov 30, 2006 4:35 pm

Hi John

I remember Geoff T saying that he thinks people punch too fast in combination, thus making their initial punches weaker in anticipation for the final punch of the combo. He preferred to load each punch so instead of a quick 1-2-3! He would do a 1!...2!...3! with a second or two between each punch.

In your opinion, when punching in combination, should a guy strive to unload as fast as he possibly can, or should he land each shot with oomph and take his time so-to-speak?

Thanks

Jeff
avatar
Jeff Menapace

Number of posts : 921
Age : 43
Registration date : 2006-08-14

View user profile

Back to top Go down

Re: Punching question

Post  John Skillen on Sun Dec 03, 2006 12:54 pm

Hi Jeff,
In Practise or for real you should off load your punches as hard and as fast as you can making every punch count. If you practise at a steady pace getting power into each punch you can then start what i call taking out the gaps this speeds your punches up without losing the ooph as you put it! the reason being is that you focus pressing in your knuckles on every punch this will make a real difference to the impact.
In a real kick off your addrennalin will speed you up so it is more important to focus on the impact of every shot in training. remember to maintain good body mechanics. Cool Wink
The only secret ingredient is f**cking hard training a concept a lot of people can't grasp.
good question mate.
thank you
john

John Skillen

Number of posts : 138
Localisation : loughborough, leicestershire
Registration date : 2006-08-16

View user profile http://www.johnskillenmaf.com

Back to top Go down

Re: Punching question

Post  Rusty Shackleford on Mon Dec 04, 2006 5:06 pm

John,

I find gaps occur in the natural course of things ie; movement of my adversary. This breaks up my timing and range and I have to shuffle my way back in, plant my feet and throw another salvo. This begs the question, do you prefer throwing a steady stream of punches regardless of whether you're totally set or not, or do you place more emphasis on pure power, where you might take a bit more time putting on the finishing touches.
avatar
Rusty Shackleford

Number of posts : 470
Registration date : 2006-09-03

View user profile

Back to top Go down

Re: Punching question

Post  John Skillen on Wed Dec 06, 2006 10:51 am

Hi Rusty are you refering to sparring or competition or a real kick off?
John

John Skillen

Number of posts : 138
Localisation : loughborough, leicestershire
Registration date : 2006-08-16

View user profile http://www.johnskillenmaf.com

Back to top Go down

Re: Punching question

Post  Rusty Shackleford on Wed Dec 06, 2006 2:17 pm

Hi John,

I'm just referring to chasing down and finishing a staggered foe who is giving ground.
avatar
Rusty Shackleford

Number of posts : 470
Registration date : 2006-09-03

View user profile

Back to top Go down

Re: Punching question

Post  Kemlyn on Thu Dec 07, 2006 7:05 am

John.
'Sport and street'.
That's something that had occured to me,when reading Jeff's question.
In boxing,for the most part,the punches are thrown quicker,lighter and somewhat more cautiously than in a street fight.
However,when one fighter is rocked by a punch,or when both guys go 'into the trenches' during a match,the manner of the attacks are much closer to the way people fight outside the ring.
In a street fight,I'm looking to take the guy out with every punch,whereas in sparring,I'm looking to set them up,look for openings,score points etc.
So when I hit the pads in boxing training,the coach is telling me to 'relax and flow',which whilst good advice,is at least partly owing to me trying to destroy the target with each blow.
Geoff T.has mentioned this,himself,I think.
Take care.
Kemlyn.

Kemlyn

Number of posts : 78
Age : 41
Localisation : UK.
Registration date : 2006-08-25

View user profile

Back to top Go down

Re: Punching question

Post  Rusty Shackleford on Thu Dec 07, 2006 9:14 am

Actually Jeff's initial question reminded me of a beat system I learned from the old fart that trained me at the P.A.L, and have since adapted for the street. Whether the pattern is 1-234, or 12-34, or 1-2-34, is dependent largely on my adversary's movement. The dash in the series represents where I have to reset, thus insuring I have maximum leverage on every shot in the series.
My M.O. is usually to lead with an eye strike. From there I can make my adjustments as needed. I prefer this to the rushed forward drive approach where you're never planted long enough to access what I would refer to as nuclear power.
avatar
Rusty Shackleford

Number of posts : 470
Registration date : 2006-09-03

View user profile

Back to top Go down

Re: Punching question

Post  Jeff Menapace on Thu Dec 07, 2006 2:02 pm

My M.O. is usually to lead with an eye strike. From there I can make my adjustments as needed. I prefer this to the rushed forward drive approach where you're never planted long enough to access what I would refer to as nuclear power.

Has this approach worked for you in real fights Rusty? I have always been too chickensh!t to lead with an eye strike as an opener in fear that it will fail and a match fight will ensue. I prefer power everytime.
avatar
Jeff Menapace

Number of posts : 921
Age : 43
Registration date : 2006-08-14

View user profile

Back to top Go down

Re: Punching question

Post  Lito on Thu Dec 07, 2006 9:54 pm

Hi Gents,
I'm with John and Jeff, I prefer POWER for street engagements...

Rusty, I understand where you are coming from in terms of striking beats/rhythms, responding to an opponent's reactions/responses, and such (e.g. impact change-ups, fakes, feints, etc, etc). In a sportive context, they are wholly applicable and when I boxed competitively, I applied them accordingly, adjusting/adapting my game to what my opponent "presented" me. However, street engagements are a different ballgame altogether; a different kind of chaos reigns. In this case, I throw each and every shot with POWER as rapidly and precisely as I can in the chaos of it all, barraging my adversary with overwhelming pressure and focused ferocity; which, in rhythmic terms, translates to rapid fire, machine gun blitzing--i.e. bang, bang, bang, bang, bang--1,2,3,4,5,6,7,8,9, etc until my adversary is "neutralized."

I always assume that any adversary I face on the streets is just as good or better than me, is carrying or has access to weapons, and has friends around to help him out. With this as my street mindset, I don't dilly-dally with potshotting, one-twos, rhythm changes/breaks, changing force/impact levels, fakes, feints, drawing in, etc. I don't reset or play around with any kind of set combination patterns (e.g. jab-cross-lead hook combo, etc.) that I perfected for sporting competitions. I'm looking to end matters in the street as quickly and decisively as possible; meaning I'm gonna blast and blitz my adversary with all the accuracy, speed, and POWER I can muster (born through pressure training and experience).

Now, some of you may be thinking "How about your adversary's blows, erratic movements, cover-ups, etc, won't this throw off your timing and render barraging useless at times?" My answer to that is it's all in the way you train. Before I go on, let me set the context. As I've mentioned in several past posts, I'm not about sportive give-and-take, back-and-forth action. I'm all about an assymetrical, one-way, one-sided "demolition/assassination" set up through deception and surprise. Anyway, my physical training for street engagements is very specific. In a nutshell, it all centers around the fact that no opponent can cover up all his openings, every second of every moment. There are always openings to attack. I specifically structure my physical training to be able to exploit these openings in constant, overwhelming pressure/continuous, ferocious attack manner. I do so by gearing my physical training to be dynamic, unpredictable, uncooperative, resistive, and realistic.

When I barrage an adversary in the streets (if it comes down to that), I don't do so haphazardly in a "spray-and-pray" fashion. I barrage in, for a lack of a better word, a deliberate manner. Through my training and experiences, my "timing" is such that I am able to sight open targets in the chaos of combat and attack them in a focused, rapid-fire way.

The bottom line, since "street timing" is different than "sportive timing," I concentrate all my training efforts to the former for three reasons-work, real-life, and the fact that I don't compete in sporting compettions anymore.

If a street engagement does turn into a "match fight," my beats/rhythms and all that still don't change. I continue to fight with constant, overwhelming pressure and continuous, rapid-fire attack. I don't stop to reset/reassess. I am non-stop, all-out relentless and ferocious. How can I do this? Good stamina, conditioning and support system borne out of hard, realistic, specific, pressure-filled training.

Anyway, I've rambled on a bit. I'll end on these excellent, excellent points John made that I wholeheartedly agree with:

In Practise or for real you should off load your punches as hard and as fast as you can making every punch count. If you practise at a steady pace getting power into each punch you can then start what i call taking out the gaps this speeds your punches up without losing the ooph as you put it!

In a real kick off your addrennalin will speed you up so it is more important to focus on the impact of every shot in training. remember to maintain good body mechanics.
The only secret ingredient is f**cking hard training a concept a lot of people can't grasp.

Beautifully said my friend...

Take Care All,
Lito

Lito
Guest


Back to top Go down

Re: Punching question

Post  Rusty Shackleford on Thu Dec 07, 2006 10:10 pm

Hey Jeff,

Yes, I've used the eye strike quite a few times in real streetfights. I use it as a distraction device because you'll get a good flinch response from it. This way I don't have to disguise any chamber and that heavy looping overhand right that's in its wake has the time to build up tremendous velocity. I've missed the strike before, driving it into the brow and still got a nice flinch from it.
avatar
Rusty Shackleford

Number of posts : 470
Registration date : 2006-09-03

View user profile

Back to top Go down

Re: Punching question

Post  Sea Bass on Fri Dec 08, 2006 12:16 am

Hey guys,

Lito when you do the 1,2,3,4,5,6,7,8, etc hard shots, is that with forward drive and if so what if the advisary side steps? I only ask because the times that I have done that in the bullit man trainning my traing partner side stepped and got my back very easily. affraid I personaly like the slite pause between strikes, it gives you a little time to adjust to what is happening at the moment. By the way great thread.
avatar
Sea Bass

Number of posts : 240
Age : 43
Localisation : Riverside, California
Registration date : 2006-08-15

View user profile http://www.myspace.com/asphaltcombatives

Back to top Go down

Re: Punching question

Post  Rusty Shackleford on Fri Dec 08, 2006 12:16 am

Lito,

I don't dilly dally and I sure as shit don't pitty pat. I'm just talking about staying at optimum range throughout the engagement. I never mentioned feinting or drawing, though I think feinting could work in a lineup. I just don't want to be so frenzied that I'm reaching and without the footing to push off.
avatar
Rusty Shackleford

Number of posts : 470
Registration date : 2006-09-03

View user profile

Back to top Go down

Re: Punching question

Post  Lito on Fri Dec 08, 2006 3:01 pm

Hi Sea Bass,
Yes, it is with constant forward pressure. I'm always looking to take ground. In regards to what I would do if an adversary sidesteps as I'm barraging, well, in real goes, that has not happened to me. I've been able to impose my will and resolve matters without that ever happening. Been fortunate...

Now, in Animal Day fights, yes, I've had opponents try to sidestep me and I nullified those attempts by "tracking" them like a laser-guided missile. Part of my phsyical training regimen is to "track" and cut off any such sidestep counters. One suggestion, if you aren't already doing it, is to start in gradient steps and have a partner hold a focus mitt, Thai pad, etc and move in erratic patterns/sidesteps while you "track" him with strikes. Start off slow and gradually progress to full speed. From there, have training partners put on some protective equipment (head gear, body guard, and protective cup) and apply the same progression, culminating this drill with your partners countering back trying to take the offensive in the process. Finally, pressure test your tracking and cut-off skills by applying them in Animal Day fights. There are some other elements and factors to consider but I hope this helps you out for now.

Oh, if a slight pause works for you and you've truly pressure tested it and/or had real successful experiences with it, stick with it. Different strokes for different folks. There's more than one way to skin a cat. Wink Good luck and good training...

Hi Rusty,
When I mentioned dilly-dallying, feinting, drawing, and such, I wasn't referring to you specifically. I don't know you and wouldn't presume to. I was sharing my perspective and experience--i.e. what I do and don't do, NOT what you do or don't do.

Take care gents.

Best Regards,
Lito

Lito
Guest


Back to top Go down

Re: Punching question

Post  Nick Hughes on Fri Dec 08, 2006 6:28 pm

Why are you all hitting them more than one time anyway? What is this "combination" thing of which you all speak? Smile

I am reminded of a story about one of the Melbourne black belts called Roman. Roman was forty years old when he took his first class...he couldn't manage one pushup or one situp. He went away that night and said he'd add one a day. Years later I was with him at one of the annual summer camps and during our 500 pushups, 500 situp requirement before breakfast I watched him bust out the entire 500 pushups in one go, then flip over and do the 500 situps. Almost everyone else did them in sets of 50 or so.

Anyway, I digress. Roman had been shown a technique whereby you stand facing an adversary with your arms folded. When it comes time to go you shoot a left backfist to under the ear (or backhand slap) and follow it with a right cross as the bad guy's head turns from the force of the slap/backfist. Roman took to it like a man possessed..every night before and after class he would stand in front of the mirror and practice for an hour or so...and he did this for six months.

One night, in comes Roman...visibly angry...scowling, muttering, cursing almost as if there was a little black stormcloud overhead shooting down lightening bolts. Everyone looked at each other and finally someone said "Roman, what's the matter?"

"Focking technik, aschfiker schleimfuss sheitzer...mutter muttter mutter"

They asked him to elaborate.

Apparently he'd been out with his fiancee the night before and they'd got into an argument outside a restaurant. Some guy yelled out "yeah, tell the cunt what for mate..I wouldn't take her shit either" at which Roman went over to give him the bad news.

He lined him up for the backfist punch combo and knocked him out with the backfist before he could launch the punch.

"Vy I practis aschifkker punch all this months...when I kan just use backfist huh? Vy you make Roman practise this other micky mouse?"

Everyone was on the floor in stitches at this point but poor old Roman was still pissed off...and was for years.

Nick
avatar
Nick Hughes

Number of posts : 3119
Localisation : USA
Registration date : 2006-08-14

View user profile http://www.kravmagalkn.com

Back to top Go down

Re: Punching question

Post  Jeff Menapace on Sat Dec 09, 2006 7:25 am

Ha ha! I remember you told this story at the seminar in Philly last May Nick. It was a good one. your Austrian accent was impressive too Laughing
avatar
Jeff Menapace

Number of posts : 921
Age : 43
Registration date : 2006-08-14

View user profile

Back to top Go down

Re: Punching question

Post  Lito on Sat Dec 09, 2006 9:36 pm

Hi Gents,
Nick H. said:
Why are you all hitting them more than one time anyway? What is this "combination" thing of which you all speak?Smile

Good point pal; serves as a means to clarify some things...

Before I go on, I usually don't divulge anything of this personal ilk, but to set the record straight on having to utilize follow-up barrages in real affrays following a preemptive strike, well, I haven't really had to in many years. I did so when I was much younger, more impetuous, and when I placed myself in ego-based match fight situations. I was, as they say, young, dumb, and full of cum... Since those days of my relative youth/young adulthood, subsequent situations have been handled more expeditiously with short, quick follow-ups necessitating themselves once in a while due to particular circumstances that arise and because "even monkeys fall out of trees sometimes" as Geoff T. would say. Most of the barraging I do since my "enlightenment" and nowadays is in training. Anyway...

As has been delineated by those with real-world experience, DECEPTION, SURPRISE, AND PREEMPTION (when all other options have failed or are not viable) are THE keys to resolving volatile matters quickly and clinically--i.e. one-shot "neutralization." That's why it is so very important to master Awareness/Assessment/Action skills ("Action" entailing Avoidance, Evasion, Dissuasion-in three facets, and Preemptive Attack-again, when the other options have failed or are not viable). However, sometimes situations that have gone physical dictate a follow-up when a preemptive strike is not successful in immediately neutralizing matters hence a barrage response to conclude matters quickly thereafter. 'Cuz remember, the longer a physical engagement lasts, the greater your chances are of losing and getting hurt/injured/killed.

Anyway, when it comes to real-world barraging, especially following a not-too-successful preemptive strike, it usually consists of roughly one to five shots, sometimes a few more, to finish matters. In the process, as I've mentioned before, it involves taking ground-i.e forward pressure, but not necessarily in a sprinting-style straight blast kind of manner some of you may envision. Often times, you end up moving just a little bit with your footwork, especially if a single or double follow-up shot does the job.

Now, if your follow-up barrage fails to neutralize your opponent conclusively in a few seconds and you're dealing with a formidable adversary, well guess what? Your asymmetrical attack will most likely transition into a symmetrical "match" fight and go into a flailing contest then into a clinch battle followed by a ground fight. If it comes down to that, it will be about your "support system" skills and stamina against his. The one with the most will, skill, and conditioning, unless luck/bad luck prevails, will win.

For those who do not want and/or are not prepared to engage in a match fight situation, I highly suggest mastering pre-engagement Threat Awareness/Assessment/Action skills and, on the physical end of this spectrum, one or two power-based dominant-side preemptive hand strikes that you have developed the utmost confidence in. Remember, that in order to optimize a single shot preemptive strike to score a KO, or, at bare minimum, a TKO/knockdown that stuns your adversary long enough for you to make a safe getaway, you MUST use the elements of DECEPTION and SURPRISE as your lead-in. So, in the process of mastering the aforementioned pre-engagement skills, be very vigilant and diligent in perfecting your dialogue, deception, distraction skills too. If you do all this, you most likely will never have to engage in a real-world match fight situation or any kind of physical engagement at all.

Well, I guess I was in a rambling mood tonight. Sorry to go so off topic, especially on John's forum. Sorry buddy...

Anyway, I hope this helps someone out. Take care all.

Best Regards,
Lito

Lito
Guest


Back to top Go down

Re: Punching question

Post  Kemlyn on Wed Dec 13, 2006 5:16 am

Hello Lito.
I think we all 'ramble',when it comes to discussing something we're so passionate about.
Your words are wise,so at least from my point of view,ramble on!
(Come to think of it,that's a song by Led Zeppelin!).
Take care.
Kemlyn.

Kemlyn

Number of posts : 78
Age : 41
Localisation : UK.
Registration date : 2006-08-25

View user profile

Back to top Go down

Re: Punching question

Post  Sponsored content


Sponsored content


Back to top Go down

View previous topic View next topic Back to top

- Similar topics

 
Permissions in this forum:
You cannot reply to topics in this forum