Board Breaking?

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Board Breaking?

Post  Guest on Sat Oct 14, 2006 11:33 am

Dave, I'm not a martial artist but I believe the typical board breaking demonstrations are frowned upon by serious fighters as not being a demonstration of much.

However, do you know of any techniques/types of equipment which are good for testing striking power?

It would be very handy to have a way of gauging one's progress, so I can see where board breaking arouse, I imagine. Afterall, unlike Bob Spour, we can't all afford a Richard Grannon doll to beat the living shit out of to test our skills!

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Re: Board Breaking?

Post  Dave Turton on Sat Oct 14, 2006 12:51 pm

I always felt tamashiwari (breaking) as a totally pointless exercise.. couldnt ever see any benefits in it

but for power just the heavy bag tells you everything... When Ali fought Forememan, Norman Mailer ( a great Boxing writer) went to see Foreman training.. he was swinging a heavy bag with a 220 lbs training partner hanging on it.. and making dents in the bag..

Focus mitts for focus
heavy bags for impact

its all you need

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Re: Board Breaking?

Post  Guest on Sun Oct 15, 2006 2:42 pm

Thanks, Dave. I'll stick to slapping the heavy bag then. Smile

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Re: Board Breaking?

Post  PullupPastor on Tue Oct 17, 2006 12:14 pm

Hi Dave i understand that breaking doesnt translate into the real world on a real man....


But does it give any positive attributes?? Im thinking of selfconfidence, focusing a strike etc?

Or is it - like knife throwing - for the time put in to get "good" at breaking - you could be doing something better?


Also is there any safe form of breaking? ie one which doesnt give a negative payoff in joint lifespan? Im thinking palmheels....
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Re: Board Breaking?

Post  Garth Barnard on Fri Oct 20, 2006 10:39 am

PullupPastor wrote: ....I understand that breaking doesnt translate into the real world on a real man....

You might find the information below interesting......

Ballistic impact to the forehead, zygoma, and mandible: comparison of human and frangible dummy face biomechanics.

Viano DC, Bir C, Walilko T, Sherman D.

Wayne State University, Bioengineering Center, Detroit, Michigan, USA. dviano@comcast.net

BACKGROUND: Currently, there is a greater use of nonlethal force in law enforcement and military operations. Because facial injuries have been observed, there is a need to understand the human response to ballistic impacts involving various regions of the face. This study aimed to establish blunt ballistic response corridors for high-speed, low-mass facial impacts to the forehead, zygoma, and mandible.

RESULTS: Peak normalized force of 3.5 +/- 0.9 kN on the forehead and 3.0 +/- 1.0 kN on the mandible did not result in fractures, whereas an impact force of 2.3 +/- 0.5 kN on the zygoma caused anterior maxilla fractures.

Kn = kilonewton.

1 kilonewton = 224.609 13 pounds force

Studies show the blackbelt board:
Board took 366.387 lbs. to break
The boards used for the test are brand new re-breakable plastic to maintain consistency for each test. Each full board takes about 70 lbs. of pressure to break. These boards are harder to break than wood!

Using the formula:
2.3 * 13 pounds force = 29.9
3.0 * 13 pounds force = 39.0
6.0 * 13 pounds force = 78.0

2.3 +/- 0.5 kN of power on the zygoma caused anterior maxilla fractures.

So (2.3 Kn * 13 pounds force) = 29.9.

That is well within the 70 pounds or 366 psi required to break a blackbelt rebreakable board.


PullupPastor wrote:But does it give any positive attributes?? Im thinking of selfconfidence, focusing a strike etc?
Dave might correct me here, but the pupose of breaking was to prove that the warrior was capable of penetrating the bamboo armour worn during many moons ago with a hand strike. There's nothing to be gained from Breaking that can't be gained from other drills.

PullupPastor wrote:Also is there any safe form of breaking? ie one which doesnt give a negative payoff in joint lifespan? Im thinking palmheels....
Palm Heels, Knife Hands, Forearms, etc, are less prone to injury during breaking.

I used to Break daily and went on to win, and defend 2 times, the British ITF style TKD Demolition/Destruction title. I did, and still can, break a house brick with a punch, two breeze blocks with a forearm, 5x 1 inch pine boards (no gaps) with a punch and palm heel, etc, etc. I won loads of bling, but now suffer with Arthritis in my right hand, most likely as a consequence.

If I was to do it all over again, I would stick to a heavy bag and focus mitts, like Dave has already suggested, and let someone else mop up the bling and have the aches and pains of old.

Take care,

Garth.
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Re: Board Breaking?

Post  Dave Turton on Fri Oct 20, 2006 5:55 pm

cant fault that Garth

The Okinawans when invaded by the Japanese had to fight the BUSHI as well as the Samurai
The bushi (foot soldiers basically) outnumbered samurai by roughly 500 to 1 in many cases and a minimum of 200 to one usually

so you would have a much greater chance of facing bushi than samurai.. the smaurai being 'higher class' wore armour.. the bushi used slats of wood over leather.. so board breaking became a necessity once you lost your weapons..

The research is flawed in that how do you measure impact with a 'poke in the eye'... or a KO punch that requires 'whip' not breakage..

punching or rather impacting humans requires the inclusion of human elements which NO non live materials can ever claim

but the Okinawans needed to break wood or die .. in the occasional case, so it was a lot more vital than ending up like Oyama who couldnt pick up a pen!

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Re: Board Breaking?

Post  Steve.Bruce on Mon Oct 23, 2006 9:38 am

I remember going to a university TKD competition a few years back and they were getting the black belt to punch through black boards.

At least three of the black belts looked like they broke their right hands on the first attempt. Only a couple actually broke the board. Then two of the said black belts did the same to their left hand when they had to try that side.

My overriding memories are of Tony Sewell not wanting to watch any of it and Garth's brother, Brett, shouting "give them a big hand...oh they already seem to have that"

I've never been a huge fan of breaking, but have to do it as part of TKD.

Dave, interesting points re the Okinawans using breaking to train for hitting bushi. I always thought that breaking was mainly a Korean thing and had just stemmed from conditioning exercises to be something to show off with.

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Re: Board Breaking?

Post  RichardZ on Tue May 01, 2012 7:57 pm

Dave Turton wrote:cant fault that Garth

The Okinawans when invaded by the Japanese had to fight the BUSHI as well as the Samurai
The bushi (foot soldiers basically) outnumbered samurai by roughly 500 to 1 in many cases and a minimum of 200 to one usually

so you would have a much greater chance of facing bushi than samurai.. the smaurai being 'higher class' wore armour.. the bushi used slats of wood over leather.. so board breaking became a necessity once you lost your weapons..

The research is flawed in that how do you measure impact with a 'poke in the eye'... or a KO punch that requires 'whip' not breakage..

punching or rather impacting humans requires the inclusion of human elements which NO non live materials can ever claim

but the Okinawans needed to break wood or die .. in the occasional case, so it was a lot more vital than ending up like Oyama who couldnt pick up a pen!

From my reads, Okinawans really did not practice board breaking for survival. Board breaking was a demonstration to psyche oneself or a upcoming opponent.

There are many fables-myths surrounding the martial arts, and Okinawa has a few of its own.

Per example; Tode was created from weaponless peasants to fight off sword wielding/armed opponents

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Re: Board Breaking?

Post  RichardZ on Tue May 01, 2012 7:58 pm

Board breaking is NOT a true test/measure of skill.

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Re: Board Breaking?

Post  David Turton on Wed May 02, 2012 2:31 am

Fair statement, but it IS a measure of board breaking skills :

the generally accepted view of Okinawan Te Masters performing and practising board breaking against sword, weapon weilding invaders holds true (more or less)

IN the reign of King Sho Hashi (sp?). the Japanese invaders confisctated and banned all metal weapons and tools. In many cases the Jaoanese made the villagers use ONE knife tied to a post in the centre of the village and guarded by a Bushi or Samurai.
This led in turn to the use of everyday articles such as Turtle shells for shields, Tonfa from the Grinding Wheels etc.

There is much anecdotal and historical eveidence that the MAIN (not only) reason for the development of Tamashiwari was indeed to destroy the wooden armour of the Bushi (foot soldiers) who didnt wear metal armour.

maybe in training the 'proof' they needed to develop the confidence to enter into battle witha sword-weilding opponent was indeed a demonstration of the board breaking abilitites.

However, genuine historical evidence relates that the trees native ot the Ryu Kyu Islands did not lend itself to making 12inches square Pine boards, as is commonly used. The strips of wood on the Bushi's 'jackets' were approx one inch wide, and it was by attaching these to old clothing that the unarmed warriors from Okinawa and the other Ryu Kyu islands practised breaking them.

pity computers, DVD's and Camcorders werent around then eh?

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Re: Board Breaking?

Post  RichardZ on Wed May 02, 2012 11:46 am

David Turton wrote:the generally accepted view of Okinawan Te Masters performing and practising board breaking against sword, weapon weilding invaders holds true (more or less)


There is much anecdotal and historical eveidence that the MAIN (not only) reason for the development of Tamashiwari was indeed to destroy the wooden armour of the Bushi (foot soldiers) who didnt wear metal armour.

maybe in training the 'proof' they needed to develop the confidence to enter into battle witha sword-weilding opponent was indeed a demonstration of the board breaking abilitites.

However, genuine historical evidence relates that the trees native ot the Ryu Kyu Islands did not lend itself to making 12inches square Pine boards, as is commonly used. The strips of wood on the Bushi's 'jackets' were approx one inch wide, and it was by attaching these to old clothing that the unarmed warriors from Okinawa and the other Ryu Kyu islands practised breaking them.
No disrespect-What sources do you have for this?

Also, there is the myth that the Shuto(?) "karate chop" was created in order for the hand to pass under the helmet of warrior in order to get to the neck


Back to board breaking. The human hand is designed to take so much abuse, there are factors from physics, and the selection of material that will always be present

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Re: Board Breaking?

Post  David Turton on Wed May 02, 2012 12:28 pm

Hi

several sources.. I have over 1000 books and magazines dating back to the 1880's, and the word of mouth from old masters such as Kenshiro Abbe, Masutatsu Otani
Michigami and others

They told me the 'facts' (if of course they WERE facts) but I had no cause to doubt them....

When Donn Draeger came to the UK in the late 1960's he also told the same anecdotes ..

These and many others from PRE-WW2 (not post when we were all anti-Japanese) all more or less said the same things.
several of my older instructors and mentors were born in the 19th century and early 20th century
they were of the old school and were not given to 'internet' type bullshit.. everything was word of mouth or in books etc

cheers

Boards today are from B&Q ... the Okinawans especially were very frugal with wood, as trees are not used 'willy-nilly' ... they couldnt afford to use wood just to smash about ...

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Re: Board Breaking?

Post  RichardZ on Wed May 02, 2012 1:09 pm

David Turton wrote:Hi

several sources.. I have over 1000 books and magazines dating back to the 1880's, and the word of mouth from old masters such as Kenshiro Abbe, Masutatsu Otani
Michigami and others

They told me the 'facts' (if of course they WERE facts) but I had no cause to doubt them....

When Donn Draeger came to the UK in the late 1960's he also told the same anecdotes ..

These and many others from PRE-WW2 (not post when we were all anti-Japanese) all more or less said the same things.
several of my older instructors and mentors were born in the 19th century and early 20th century
they were of the old school and were not given to 'internet' type bullshit.. everything was word of mouth or in books etc

cheers

Boards today are from B&Q ... the Okinawans especially were very frugal with wood, as trees are not used 'willy-nilly' ... they couldnt afford to use wood just to smash about ...

I am familiar with Draegar as well the works of McCarthy and Bishop.

We cannot place total commitment to word or mouth and books-especially those "dated".

We cannot afford to be complacent.

That said, my mind is now contemplating the Buddhist Kalama Suttra in reference.

Thus, we have to examine everything within as much reasoning and/or logical deduction.


BTW, I do not have that vast of a collection as I have only started mine in the 1950's.
I envy your collection and if I was living nearby, you would have to keep me away from wanting to read-look upon those. cheers

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Re: Board Breaking?

Post  David Turton on Thu May 03, 2012 1:36 am

thanks Richard

The sodding mags and books take up most of my loft and garage and to be honest I must find time to organise them much better

as for 'sources' and the info they provide, we are really in the position of taking a lot of it on face value.
I agree that we cant take it all as gospel, we can only take it for what it is.

obviously not everything even in print can be accepted 100%, nor can 'verbal' stories and information be accepted

but we can ONLY use what info we have ... as the years pass and my collection increases, the info they contain either make the ideas more sure, less sure or makes no difference.

it depends how much you 'trust' the source/s, and also does it make sense

cheers

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Re: Board Breaking?

Post  RichardZ on Thu May 03, 2012 2:42 pm

I would tend to summerise that board braking was not for penetrating armor.

It became a quasi-cult thing for martial artists to awe non-martial artists

Nowadays, it is not a measure of fighting skill-defense-protection

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Re: Board Breaking?

Post  David Turton on Thu May 03, 2012 5:43 pm

I guess for now we will have to agree to disagree regarding point A

I believe that breaking wood was to 'prove' that the warriors could break wooden armour..

I totally agree with point C

point B .. Mmm? .. possibly but but given that public displays of the martial arts were very rare in the 18th and 19th centuries, but wood and 'tile' breaking was carried out 'underground' or 'behind doors' as it were

the confidence developed from this gave the warriors the belief that the wearing of wooden armour was not deterent to defeating them

thats my belief, I only have the ideas and anectodes that I know of and have developed that belief in myself

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Re: Board Breaking?

Post  RichardZ on Thu May 03, 2012 9:10 pm

Well, you have only reference Draeger.

That said, like I have stated, many old texts tend to regurgitate ideas which by some, were far-fetched

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