Eye shots?

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Re: Eye shots?

Post  haydox on Thu Aug 17, 2006 3:58 pm

Slackbladder wrote:Phil, friend of Jimmy Fatwing, gave me a 'cupped-hand to the eye socket' blow late last year.

Quite an unusual sensation. Consciousness was definately "floaty" for a few moments. Great fun, but beware the glaucoma risk.

Haha, that is something i will remember for future use! To be honest, if i did it to a mugger i personally wouldnt give a damn if i damaged their eye (seriously or not), NOBODY tries to take my phone (250 SE W810i)!
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Re: Eye shots?

Post  Slackbladder on Thu Aug 17, 2006 4:18 pm

I was thinking more in terms of belting your mates (and they, you) to see what it feels like. Nobody wants to rob a mate of his sight.
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Re: Eye shots?

Post  Narcoleptic on Fri Aug 18, 2006 1:55 am

easypea wrote:Personally - and this doesn't apply to all situations, but my general philosophy is, if I'm going to spend the time and energy to throw and finger towards my assailant's eye, I might just as well turn that finger into a fist and re-direct slightly to his jaw.

Fair enough. Though id say theres something to making a first move as untelegraphed as possible, and since putting your fingers in someones eyes require little power its easy to throw without warning and can nicely mask the action of delivering the powershot to follow.

Another use for it would be when caught flat footed/off balance etc. The low power required again would give you a good chance of buying a fraction of time to align yourself for power generation. The movement itself will actually help set the other hand up and you can put the foot in front (on his foot?) simultaneously if you were standing akwardly.

Cheers,

/Narco
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Re: Eye shots?

Post  Coops on Fri Aug 18, 2006 2:28 am

Hi Slackbladder - The cupped hand which Phil kindly delivered to you is one of our primary blows (Phil is an IPDTA instructor). It can on occasion result in scratching of the face, but that isn't the actual aim. The hand covers the area around the eye which is protected by bone. The 'cupped' effect is simply due to it contouring the shape of the skull in that area. If you are lucky enough to actually find a good target with the first blow, great. But, as you all know, it's really difficult to pre empt and be completely non-telegraphic, so the eye socket shot is actually just the first of a barrage of blows until the threat to you has ceased.

Doesn't half shock you though eh Smile

I accept that the eye area is a large hole Brian - especially if you've got beautiful big dark eyes like mine Very Happy. My point is that when things go dynamic and any target is hard to aquire, aiming at the eyes is just making your job even harder. A blow as was delivered to Slackbladder however, can then transition into an eye gouge.

Coops
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Re: Eye shots?

Post  Goatboy on Sun Aug 20, 2006 9:22 am

my problem with an eye strike is that:

A. it takes very little movement to move the target area

B. anyone with basic boxing skills can defend their face (and remember that they dont need to stop the strike, even a tiny amount of movement effectively ruins it)

C. Given A and B there are better striking areas that are easier to hit and can take a person out of a fight just as easily. for example the throat.

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Re: Eye shots?

Post  Get Back on Sun Aug 20, 2006 9:36 am

I have never used an eye shot consciously, and I worry about the raising of the bar a little too early.

I know that if I strike somebody I should do it to knock them out, but I worry about them mirroring my behaviour when it comes to eyes. I find that people often try to copy the things you do, and what may have initially been a few bumps and lumps, has become an eye gouging contest. As I say though, I have never tried one for real.

As for fish hooks, I think the risk outweighs the benefit. Again though, having never been bitten (by someone with teeth, but that is another story), it is hard to say.

Mike
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Re: Eye shots?

Post  Sea Bass on Sun Aug 20, 2006 6:04 pm

I don't think eye strikes are that hard to get off. Yes if you are already in the mix but as a pre-empt easy. Aim for the middle of the nose and ramp up into the eye. Even if you miss it will cause them to flinch giving you the opportunity for a ko shot. It is very instinctive to protect your eyes, after all they will not grow back.
Get Back, Consider every fight as a attempt to take your life, you have no idea what another man is capable of doing to you. If you don't it might be the last mistake of your life. Don't fight unless you have to and don't fight because of ego and you will be fine and justified in your actions, you are dong them to save your life. Just my two cents
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Re: Eye shots?

Post  bukweetz on Mon Aug 21, 2006 9:15 am

here is a clip of coops dishing out the eye strike.. ouch

http://www.esds.org.pl/filmiki/eye.wmv
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Re: Eye shots?

Post  Coops on Mon Aug 21, 2006 3:16 pm

bukweetz, will that ever leave me.

The guy
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Re: Eye shots?

Post  Coops on Mon Aug 21, 2006 3:26 pm

As I was saying, before technology got in my way, The guy I hit is a Gothenbourg cop. He is six feet and something extra and is now an IPDTA instructor. He is certainly a rough character.

The clip simply shows what the strike is capable of. We have to go through these tests to become instructors. It isn't a fight - it's just a drill.

To be honest, the blow (which was many years ago, but has been preserved thank's to video) actually knocked me back as well. I couldn't believe that I had done that, until someone did it to me Surprised
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Re: Eye shots?

Post  Katsumoto on Mon Aug 21, 2006 3:27 pm

Brilliant stuff, Coops.

Can you give us a breakdown of what the effect of the strike was?
How did your victim experience it?

Using a waveform I do a much heavier version of that strike with about the same degree of body movement. Never having used it on some poor unsuspecting chav I'd be very interested to know the potential effects.
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Re: Eye shots?

Post  Coops on Mon Aug 21, 2006 3:39 pm

Sorry katsumo, but I don't know what a waveform is. Input please.

The potential effect is that they sit on their arses Very Happy

I've done it many time when I was operational and it never failed. Several times I missed the eye, but hit the head and the effect was extremely satisfying. I actually dropped a beligerant individual, who got in the way of me handcuffing an (alleged) offender. I was on one knee, applying the bracelets when this jerk got too close. too many times. I took my right hand off the 'cuffs and whacked him on the chest. He dropped like a dead body. He got up more or less straight away and was no more trouble.

Ahh. countless stories, so little time Very Happy

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Re: Eye shots?

Post  Katsumoto on Mon Aug 21, 2006 3:54 pm

A 'waveform' is one of Russell Stutely's little bag of tricks which I am finding very very useful. It's effectively like a double hip, a la Mr Consterdine. but I find a lot more flexible because you can deploy them in different planes. Basically, it's a power generation method.

I am integrating them into a variety of standard combative strikes, so effectively you get say a slap to the eye or an axe hand to the neck/hammerfist with a 'double hip' behind it. Once you get used to them you can generate the power with little perceptible body movement which I think is ideal for legal-friendly dropping of scumbags.

I find the 'eye slap' fascinating since it seems exactly the sort of technique I am looking for, i.e innocent looking but devastating in effect.

How does it feel to have one on the eye? Do you go down due to the effect on the eye/nerves or is it more the rattling of the brain like a punch?

Waveform vid examples here:

http://russellstutely.co.uk/index.php?option=com_content&task=view&id=20&Itemid=32
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Re: Eye shots?

Post  Coops on Tue Aug 22, 2006 1:29 am

bukweetz wrote:here is a clip of coops dishing out the eye strike.. ouch

http://www.esds.org.pl/filmiki/eye.wmv

Hi Bukweetz. Just to get the embarrassment out of the way quickly, could you post a link to the clip which shows me nearly knocked over. May as well get it out of the way now Embarassed

Katsumoto - I couldn't play the clips unfortunately, but I have trained with Peter C a good few times, so understand the double hip. The truth is (and I'm sure you know) that all power generation uses either that concept or a drop step of some kind. We hit with both methods, but when trying to explain the former method of generating power, I liken it to cracking a bullwhip, or casting a line with a fishing rod. Could a waveform be similar to that?

Coops
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Re: Eye shots?

Post  Narcoleptic on Tue Aug 22, 2006 1:37 am

Coops,

what browser do you use? The clip will play in explorer for me, but not in Firefox.

Cheers,

/Narco
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Re: Eye shots?

Post  Katsumoto on Tue Aug 22, 2006 4:05 am

Coops wrote:but when trying to explain the former method of generating power, I liken it to cracking a bullwhip, or casting a line with a fishing rod. Could a waveform be similar to that?

Coops

Yes, particularly in that plane of motion. You sort of use your whole body as the whip, rather than say just your arm.
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Re: Eye shots?

Post  Coops on Tue Aug 22, 2006 6:10 am

I'll be honest. The double hip is a great method of power generation and Peter C is an amazing teacher. But for simplicity of teaching it's a nightmare if used in a basic SD class. When I was still in the cops, as an experiment we tried teaching it's use to cops in their DT classes. Absolutely not a chance with non MA's. It takes up too much of the allotted time.

Our way of hitting is much easier to teach, simply because all the student does is watch you, then practice, with little or no verbal tuturing. We teach quick and even though not everyone gets the actual method correct, they pick enough up to use it effectively, especially if they just keep on hitting as they drive on in to the assailant. Anyway, as Fairbairn alluded, it's the will, not the skill which carries the day.

Coops
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Re: Eye shots?

Post  bukweetz on Wed Aug 23, 2006 8:39 am

check out the 'bad news' clip, for more eye mashing fun.

http://www.ipdta.com/videos.html
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Re: Eye shots?

Post  Narcoleptic on Wed Aug 23, 2006 8:56 am

Coops,

hope you dont mind this question: could you tell me something about what the "bad day" and "chest hit" clips are supposed to demonstrate? To me the fact that it hurts to stand and let someone smack you is kind of obvious, but maybe im missing something here?

Cheers,

/Narco
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Re: Eye shots?

Post  Coops on Thu Aug 31, 2006 3:11 am

Narcoleptic wrote:Coops,

hope you dont mind this question: could you tell me something about what the "bad day" and "chest hit" clips are supposed to demonstrate? To me the fact that it hurts to stand and let someone smack you is kind of obvious, but maybe im missing something here?

Hi Narco

The clips are really of little use. Although Bukweetz posted them here to show folks a part of our training, you must understand that they are simply a small piece of the jigsaw. Our learning principles are simpley baed round the way that an adult learns quickest - you have to watch it the techniques, then practice them. But to truly get into a position where you will actually use a certain technique in a SD situation, you have to have complete faith in it. That's where the rather odd clips come from - we were only at that point in the learning curve where we were trying to build people's belief in the strike. The clips are not the be all and end all - they are just a few minutes in the day's training where that building block has to put in place.

The blows are consentual and nowhere near full power. The chest shot is delivered harder than the eye shot, simply because a person can take a bit more impact in that relitively safe area. It also helps to enable some people to actually hit a fellow human being, albeit at a low level. That is another obstacle which has to be dealt with in the learning environment and not left to where the student actually finds himself in a bad situation.

So - we don't spend a lot of time on what was seen in the clips. Ti's just another step in the journey to enablement grasshopper Smile

Coops
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Re: Eye shots?

Post  Jeff Menapace on Thu Aug 31, 2006 6:48 pm

Hey Mick.

I know you favor the long gouge with the thumb. What are your thoughts on a quick whip with the back of the fingers/hand (kind of like an open handed backfist I guess) into the general eye area to induce a flinch response and then piling in with bombs after that?
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Re: Eye shots?

Post  Sea Bass on Thu Aug 31, 2006 10:22 pm

Is there a chance that you might break your thumb using the long gouge? I like using it a lot. If you miss with the thumb the palm follows nicely. Very Happy
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Re: Eye shots?

Post  Guest on Fri Sep 01, 2006 2:08 am

Just to clarify the term 'long gouge' a little - it isn't any kind of ballistic jab with the thumb that covers any real distance.

I employ and teach this tool as a short sudden introduction of the thumb to the eye region from a hands up and out posture, where they are positioned close to the intended target.

The shoulder is suddenly pushed forward to propel the thumb just a few inches, rather than the arm firing off the shot.

It's useful in an escalating confrontation when there is no real clear shot for a punch or palm, but there is a definite requirement to have the hands away from the body, actively controlling the other party and situation. If there was a clear shot I'd just take it, no question.

As it is non-ballistic there is little chance of damaging the thumb - instead all you do is just 'reach out and touch' which incidentally chambers the shoulders and hips perfectly for a rear hand blow of virtually any description.

Keeping it short and sudden, yet subtle, keeps it under the flinch 'radar' - the quick eye jab doesn't achieve this, but does generates a decent distraction, but nothing like as effective as a solid thumb rammed into the eye.

Mick

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Re: Eye shots?

Post  Richard Grannon on Fri Sep 01, 2006 8:08 am

cool Cool
i want practise this now!
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