Eye shots?

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Eye shots?

Post  haydox on Wed Aug 16, 2006 8:51 am

I am reading Dead or Alive and in Chapter 2, under the section about Gratuitous Violent attackers, the 4th response is a disarming question (example given, "Is your mum's name Elsie?") then a quick and 'destructive' attack. I remember reading either on the original GT forum or earlier in the book, that a poke to the eye was a good way of getting time to escape, or a way of getting a more 'disarming' attack in (eg kick to the wedding tackle).

I was wondering if there are any special techniques which could be applied before, when or after a poke to the eye, for example a position which gives good power, or a good follow up move?

Thanks

Haydox
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Re: Eye shots?

Post  edbaker on Wed Aug 16, 2006 9:24 am

haydox, (to my shame) i haven't read dead or alive yet, but in my opinion when it comes to eye shots there are two options.

the first is the poke, ie a jab to the eye with a finger or thumb (or car key) designed to send the attacker backwards and dissuade him, or distract him andset him up for a KO strike. This requires extreme accuracy, persoanlly I would opt for a claw hand strike aimed at the eyes, which could hit and hurt both, or still have the desired effect if you got the nose, just like a cat attacks with the claw.

When you speak of disarming do you mean as in taking away the threat of an armed assailant (knife/gun)? or as a "buying time" measure?

In the case of a disarming, and I assume you mean knife as I don't pretend to know anything about gun defence at all, (don't know much about knife either!!) i would go for grabbing the wrist or hand to stop the stab and if you want to gouge, then grip the face/hair/ear/cheek/back of the head with your hand and ram the thumb up and into the eye very hard as if you were trying to close your hand.


If you mean just to buy time, if you can hit the eye very accuratley then fine, maybe an open hand power slap would be better - it is hard to read, powerful, can KO on it's own or just stun, and looks like nothing more than a girlie slap, plus you won't get done for GBH if you blind a drunk prick who starts on you!!!!

Happy training mate, Ed.
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Re: Eye shots?

Post  haydox on Wed Aug 16, 2006 10:09 am

Ok, i meant disarm as in distract. I never really thought about clawing, but it is a very good idea.

Also, if i were to knock back an attacker with a claw to the face, i would then either go for my keys, or a quick kick/knee to the groin, as this would hurt ANYONE (and bring many to the ground), unless they were wearing a cup!

Also, if i were faced with someone with a knife i honestly dont know what i would do, and if i were faced with someone with a gun i would probably shit myself!

I will probably ring Ian Harrison tomorrow, as i am not busy, about his self defense/kick boxing class, this should help a lot!
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Re: Eye shots?

Post  edbaker on Wed Aug 16, 2006 10:15 am

ok, practice the groin kick but remember - not everyone will go down as it is surprisinlgy hard to get the "sweet spot" with a groin kick - particularly if they have tight jeans on or are coveringup, if the claw makes them lean back and exposes the target, then sure, if he doubles over then i wouldn't risk it as he could block and catch your leg or knock you off balance.

A very quick claw followed by a right/left cross to the chin should do it, if you wanna kick try the low thai kick or snap kick the knee/shin.

Above all - train these moves, the number of times I hear someone say in a pub "yeah if it was a bigger guy I'd take his knees out first..."
oh really, would you? how? show me.

You're onto the right idea with eye and groin shots on the street tho - you evil bugger!!
Laughing Laughing
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Re: Eye shots?

Post  haydox on Wed Aug 16, 2006 11:13 am

edbaker wrote:You're onto the right idea with eye and groin shots on the street tho - you evil bugger!!
Laughing Laughing
Haha, i just thought about what the best way for me to inflict pain and disorientate an attacker was as i am not very big or strong, and i thought of 2 weak areas, eyes and balls!

What are those 2 kicks you mentioned? I have hardly any martial arts training (only a little Shotokan Karate) so know very few specific moves!
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Re: Eye shots?

Post  edbaker on Wed Aug 16, 2006 2:34 pm

LOL - eyes and balls!

The kicks, thai kick is also known as a roundhouse kick, round kick, turning kick etc, don't know shotokan name but my flatmate would although he is out at the mo!! essentially you throw it from a boxing type stance with the back leg for most power (you can throw it with the front though too) you pivot on the front foot, turning your heel toward the attacker, bringing your hips through and scything your leg round striking with the shin or top of foot see here http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=5h4KDpH5wYQ&mode=related&search=

VERY powerful if you get it right - numerous knockouts of big guys achieved in UFC with these- albeit over time but still, i myself have been on the end of them in thailand and they are soul-destroying.

snap kick is basically lifting the front leg slightly and snapping out the foot from the knee using the ball of the foot (toes pulled back) to strike just inside or outside the knee, this often works to de-stabilise the opponent and occupy their mind giving you time for the KO/controlling hold.

hope this helps, Ed.
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Re: Eye shots?

Post  haydox on Wed Aug 16, 2006 3:15 pm

Ah, the snap kick is basically the first kick i was taught in karete, and i have seen the round kick in a few videos.
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Re: Eye shots?

Post  xm15nytyme on Wed Aug 16, 2006 3:23 pm

snap kicks are great for fragile areas...
knees
inner thighs
groin (women are just as vulnerable)
chin (if you're quick and flexible)
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Re: Eye shots?

Post  Baggio on Wed Aug 16, 2006 3:33 pm

Hey guys,

I always liked the concept of striking the eye before the “heavy artillery” comes in.

Even if you miss with the eye strike, it should still initiate the flinch response. Which should in turn provide a good opportunity for a follow up. I like Fairbairn's finger dart – which comes up below the line of vision. I think it would be very effective to come from the “off hand”, with a highish fence in place.

Now to be fair I've never used in it a real situation. Although, I have used an “eye flick” from American Kenpo, but I never had to follow up afterwards (luckily enough). Problem with the flick is that it wont cause any real damage, again it's okay to initiate a flinch. However I would never look back after seeing the “eye dart” or Mick C's “thumb gauge”.

Just my 2 cents,

R.

PS - where did you get the 3d model of the AK - it's cool!

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Re: Eye shots?

Post  mattyboy on Wed Aug 16, 2006 6:21 pm

Youve only got two pair of balls!!

Your eyeballs and your balls!!

One is high , one is low attack grab, squeeze scoop out, poke out twist stomp!!!

its usually a finisher!!!!

and a great one when youre up close and personal!!!




Matty
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Re: Eye shots?

Post  mattyboy on Wed Aug 16, 2006 6:28 pm

eye balls (high Balls)


and low balls....attack low balls..head comes down attack high balls and take out the f..rs vision....or vice versa..you can actually take the eyeball out..his friends wont come back for more!!!!


funny clip from Rich Dimitri here...



http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=E3zNngq5j2U

on the same subject.....


have fun mate...matt
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Re: Eye shots?

Post  mattyboy on Wed Aug 16, 2006 6:34 pm

Goto agree with Nytme, Snap kick on the balls move to the side take the face, eyeballs, fishook, nose, throat its all up to you...

Personal favourite..stomp kick to the Knee Cap or Muay Thai style kick to side of knee or Gallbladder 33 side of upper thigh....


But no point in just knowing this stuff you got to drill it.....so give Ian a call, man can that guy kick!!!!



Matty
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Re: Eye shots?

Post  xm15nytyme on Wed Aug 16, 2006 10:22 pm

Mattyboy...

I won't detract from the fishhook... because it's nasty and it works...
but just make sure people are aware of the consequences...

bitten fingers... bitten OFF fingers...

in a full stress altercation, i would wager you'll get bitten or at least gashed by the teeth in the process of performing one.

Life or Death... totally worth it.
other case... your call.
telling the difference? impossible.

wait, this seems like i'm being confrontational...
i agree with Mattyboy, but just wanted to point out some dangers with a cool manuever.
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Re: Eye shots?

Post  Dave Turton on Wed Aug 16, 2006 11:45 pm

there is a way of using a fish hook without getting bitten at all.. its all down to positioning

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Re: Eye shots?

Post  Guest on Thu Aug 17, 2006 2:54 am

The eye is one of my favourite targets - I've had so much success from it, even when it hasn't worked it's created opportunities that have, so in a way it's always worked!

I feel that eye attacks are best suited for anti-grabbing situations - purely because of the lack of power they require to be effective, and used in a grabbing/grappling situation they are perfect because of the restricted nature of the attack, power can be in short supply.

This said, I had a tremendous run of 'poke-then-punch' on the door - to the point of getting ridiculous! I drill this as a 'long gouge' now using a subtle but sudden body turn to propel my lead hand out and impact with the thumb, fingers indexing the ear on the same side of the head.

I put in some lenghty posts concerning this sort of thing on the old GT forum, I'll dig 'em out and re-post them maybe?

As far as fish-hooking is concerned I never liked it much, preferring the eye every time - I feel that if you can fish-hook you can gouge, and if it's turning the head you want then the eye-socket makes a better handle than the mouth. No-one ever lost a finger from a set of eye-lashes either! I can pull a man across a room from a fish-hook - not pleasent, but never from an eye-gouge. I get the impression that the thought of the fish-hook worries people more than the actual effect.

Mick

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Re: Eye shots?

Post  haydox on Thu Aug 17, 2006 2:59 am

As a 'sequence' of attacks involving an eye shot, i thought of what the natural reaction to certain attacks were.

First i would go for their eye, drawing their hands up to their head, then i would go for the groin, making them lean forwards, then i would probably try to slam their head down onto my knee, or run like the wind!
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Re: Eye shots?

Post  easypea on Thu Aug 17, 2006 7:06 am

Personally, I try to avoid making plans on what a reaction will be to each attack and thus having a cinematic sequence of attacking moves.

In my experience, it never happens like you planned
In fact - it usually happens opposite to the way you planned - or maybe that was just my bad luck :-(

Don't expect someone to bend over when you kick them in the groin

Personally - and this doesn't apply to all situations, but my general philosophy is, if I'm going to spend the time and energy to throw and finger towards my assailant's eye, I might just as well turn that finger into a fist and re-direct slightly to his jaw.
If I am expecting a shock reaciton from the eye shot, then I'll get an equal shock reaction from the crack on the jaw - and hopefully won't need the follow-up shots, which would usually be yet more whacks to his jaw.

I was asked once if palming someone on the end of their nose to make their eyes water, thus creating an opening for a knock-out shot, was a good idea.
I suggested, if you want to make your opponent's eyes water - cut an onion in front of them.
Why waste energy on an opening strike - make the first and everyone count.

But as I said, this is my general opinion and not necessarily applicable in Every situation!

Oh, and in answer to some of the earlier posts about knive's and guns.
My general approach is run like £$%k.
And if it's a gun...... run like %^&k with some zig zag thrown in for good measure :-)

Take care all

AL
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Re: Eye shots?

Post  haydox on Thu Aug 17, 2006 7:53 am

All true, personally if i was faced with a knife i would employ the stuff in GTs book, which is avoid certain places and people, and stay vigilant and with a group. Or failing that i would run like the wind!

And if i was faced by someone with a gun i would either avoid them in the first place (as above) or try to run for it whilst weaving.

And with regards to the punching them, as i am not that strong and have very little training in how to make punches effective, i feel an eye 'claw' would be more effective as you dont need to be strong to hurt eyes!
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Re: Eye shots?

Post  lazy fighter on Thu Aug 17, 2006 10:57 am

Haydox - off topic a bit, but where did you get that avatar from, mate? I'm no gun nut, I just marvel at the engineering that goes into it.
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Re: Eye shots?

Post  haydox on Thu Aug 17, 2006 11:08 am

Its off the wikipedia page on the AK47, i saw it and thought it looked cool!
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Re: Eye shots?

Post  Coops on Thu Aug 17, 2006 11:21 am

I accept that I am slower than most and I now need specs for close up work, but when I have been working with groups on targetting the eyes, they tends to be to small a target. A full hand in the face and hopefully a diget goes in the eye is one thing. But actually aiming for an eye shot is beyond the capabilities of some, because of the dynamics and movement of the target.

That changes when you are 'hands on' with a subject obviously, because you can find the eyes by feel. I must admit that the folk I was working with only trained with such stuff during basic DT refreshers and were not like the people here, but I thought it worth mentioning anyway.

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Re: Eye shots?

Post  Guest on Thu Aug 17, 2006 1:02 pm

I don't think that the eyes are as small a target as poeple assume. They're quite big, it's just that you can't see too much of them. They're a bit like icebergs!

Think of the two holes in the front of your skull. They're much bigger than the eyes. And the bridge of the nose in between? Fingers can easily slide off that, and straight into those skull holes again.

A finger anywhere in one of those holes is an eye shot. Try it on yourself. Push your finger anywhere into these holes.....but go gently! You'll soon find the squishy bit!

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Re: Eye shots?

Post  Katsumoto on Thu Aug 17, 2006 1:22 pm

Here's a tactic for you that is a bit of a 'Shocker'..get your training partner to try it on you...apparently it's capable of a knockout effect.

This is the way I train it:

From a staggered, passive fence - lead hand does a loose-armed whip-type slap with a cupped hand to the eyesocket. If you can burst eardrums with a slap to the ear, imagine what the effect is to the eye ball and all them luvverly nerve endings?

Obviously, you can do it off the backhand too if you're feeling nasty.

I have a clip of this strike somewhere, but couldn't find it on youtube to demo.

I'd be interested to know if anyone has tried this on someone big, ugly and angry?
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Re: Eye shots?

Post  haydox on Thu Aug 17, 2006 3:46 pm

I never thought of the cupped hand slap, but i like it!

I was more thinking along the lines of a 'claw' using nails, as if you get an eye it would bloody hurt, and if you miss it would still distract them as they have just been 'clawed' in the face!
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Re: Eye shots?

Post  Slackbladder on Thu Aug 17, 2006 3:56 pm

Phil, friend of Jimmy Fatwing, gave me a 'cupped-hand to the eye socket' blow late last year.

Quite an unusual sensation. Consciousness was definately "floaty" for a few moments. Great fun, but beware the glaucoma risk.
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